JRE #2109 – Abigail Shrier

This podcast features Abigail Shrier, an independent journalist and author, discussing her latest book, “Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren’t Growing Up”. Joe Rogan and Shrier tackle controversial and provocative topics related to mental health, parenting, and the therapeutic industry. They explore how a culture of over-diagnosis and over-intervention is negatively impacting children, undermining their resilience and hindering their growth.

Here are some of the major topics discussed in the podcast:

The Rise of “Gender Affirming Care”

• The Profit Motive: Shrier contends that the rapid expansion of gender transition clinics is driven by a lucrative market, with little oversight or consideration for potential long-term consequences.
• Life-Saving Care or Castration?: Shrier challenges the term “gender affirming care”, arguing that it obscures the reality of procedures like castration and breast removal.
• Silence and Censorship: Shrier highlights the suppression of dissenting voices, particularly those of detransitioners who regret their transition choices.
• The New York Times Shift: Shrier believes the New York Times’ recent stance against “gender affirming care” for minors is likely influenced by the growing number of lawsuits filed by detransitioners.

The Overprescription of Therapy and Medication

• Therapy for the “Not Sick”: Shrier argues that many children are being treated with therapy and medication for issues that don’t constitute actual mental illness or disorder, leading to iatrogenic effects, meaning that the treatment is causing more harm than good.
• The Iatrogenic Effects of Therapy: She points to research indicating that therapy can worsen existing problems, leading to alienation, worsening depression, and feelings of incapacity.
• The “Permissive Therapeutic” Parent: Shrier suggests that parents are increasingly relying on therapy as a first resort, even for minor issues, while neglecting to instill resilience and coping mechanisms.
• The Incentive to Treat the “Least Sick”: Shrier discusses the financial incentive for therapists to treat patients who are easier to manage and who are likely to continue treatment long-term, potentially neglecting those with more complex mental health needs.

The Importance of Resilience and Self-Reliance

• The “Trauma Generation”: Shrier argues that constantly focusing on emotional discomfort and labeling every negative experience as trauma creates a culture of fragility and hinders the development of resilience.
• The Value of Discomfort: Shrier emphasizes the importance of allowing children to experience discomfort and setbacks as a way to build strength and learn from their mistakes. She believes that avoiding discomfort through therapy and medication actually undermines a child’s ability to cope with the inevitable challenges of life.
• The Power of “Shake It Off”: Shrier advocates for a return to a more robust approach to parenting, teaching children that they can handle adversity and overcome challenges without resorting to therapy or medication.
• The Importance of Structure and Authority: Shrier discusses research indicating that authoritative parenting, characterized by loving boundaries and clear expectations, produces healthier and more resilient children.

The Role of Social Media and Technology

• Social Contagion: Shrier believes that social media plays a significant role in the spread of “gender affirming care” ideology, particularly among vulnerable youth.
• Dopamine Addiction: Shrier highlights the addictive nature of social media and its impact on mental health, contributing to anxiety and a sense of inadequacy.
• The Failure of Mental Health Organizations: Shrier questions the silence of mental health organizations on the negative impacts of social media and their focus on other issues.
• The Lack of Oversight and Regulation: Shrier criticizes the lack of regulation and warning about social media’s potential harm, arguing that it is just as dangerous as cigarettes.

A Call for a Shift in Perspective

• The Importance of Trusting Yourself: Shrier encourages parents to trust their instincts and not rely solely on the opinions of therapists and doctors. She believes that parents have the capacity to raise healthy, resilient children without excessive intervention.
• The “Latino Paradox”: Shrier highlights the “Latino paradox”, where immigrants tend to have better mental health than their assimilated counterparts, suggesting that strong family ties and a sense of community contribute to resilience.
• The Power of “Work it Out”: Shrier emphasizes the value of allowing children to work out their own problems, learn from their mistakes, and develop a sense of independence.
• The Need for a Broader Perspective: Shrier challenges the prevailing narrative that mental health issues are always the result of trauma and advocates for a more holistic understanding of well-being that emphasizes resilience, self-reliance, and the power of human connection.

Abigail Shrier’s insights offer a provocative and challenging perspective on the state of mental health, parenting, and the therapeutic industry. She encourages listeners to question the prevailing narratives and consider alternative approaches to fostering well-being and resilience in children.

Memorable Quotes:

• “It’s a very, very strange time. So I’m glad we had that podcast and I would have a hundred more of them. I think it’s very important to talk about this and I think there’s too many people that are scared to talk about it and that’s why the stuff is getting so much traction. And it’s scary, it’s scary.”
• “The whole thing is a money and influence game and it’s run by very powerful people. No one wants to think that those same factors are at play when it comes to gender transition. But, you know, I’ve shown people the map of gender transition clinics in 2007 versus gender transition clinics in 2023. And it’s fucking insane.”
• “It’s so crazy that there’s so many things that we don’t allow children to do because we know that children can’t really make lifelong decisions at the age of 11 and 12 and 13, but yet we’ll let them in this case.”
• “They’re not measuring in general, is your anxiety going getting better? Like cognitive behavioral therapists will often measure, and they’ll often say to a parent, I’m going to see him for this many sessions, and we’re gonna measure and make sure the phobia is improving. But very often, they’ll just talk about the pain. And talking about the pain regularly, endlessly, is often not as good for a kid as joining the basketball team.”
• “We’ve made them neither. Because making happiness your goal is actually a recipe for being unhappy. And if you don’t make a kid strong, he can’t be happy.”