JRE #1726 – Chuck Palahniuk

27-Oct-21

This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience podcast features a conversation with acclaimed author Chuck Palahniuk, known for his provocative and unsettling novels like “Fight Club” and “Choke.” The discussion delves into various themes, including the nature of censorship, the role of humor in confronting uncomfortable realities, the impact of head trauma, and the curious allure of the absurd. Throughout the episode, Palahniuk weaves together personal anecdotes, literary insights, and musings on human nature, creating a captivating and thought-provoking dialogue.

• Absurdist Existentialism: Palahniuk introduces the concept of absurdist existentialism, a philosophy that embraces the inherent absurdity of existence. He argues that this philosophy, prevalent in works by Vonnegut, Robbins, West, and Fitzgerald, has resurfaced in contemporary culture, a response to a perceived breakdown of societal norms and a sense of unfixable problems. This theme explores the freeing nature of embracing the absurd, finding joy and freedom in the face of chaos.
  • Palahniuk identifies the absurdist elements in his own writing, particularly in books like “Geek Love” and “Confederacy of Dunces.”
  • He discusses the difficulty of adapting these books to film due to their challenging subject matter and controversial themes.
  • Palahniuk posits that the current climate of hypersensitivity and “cancel culture” makes it even more difficult to explore such ideas openly.
  • He argues for the importance of books like “Geek Love” remaining accessible, even if some consider their content offensive, as they offer a unique perspective on human nature.
• Censorship and the “Cancel Culture”: Palahniuk explores the growing phenomenon of “cancel culture” and its impact on free speech and creative expression. This topic delves into the complexities of censorship and the potential for overreach, highlighting the tension between social responsibility and artistic freedom.
  • Palahniuk observes the different consequences for public figures deemed “cancelable,” suggesting factors like financial success and general popularity play a role in determining who gets “canceled.”
  • He contrasts the treatment of Mel Gibson, whose controversial behavior has seemingly gone unpunished, with that of Roseanne Barr, who was quickly ostracized for her offensive tweets.
  • Palahniuk expresses concern about the impact of censorship on access to classic works, citing examples of books like “Tom Sawyer” being removed from some schools due to racial slurs.
  • He argues that censorship, even when applied to controversial works, often fails to eliminate the ideas or content, as they continue to circulate through alternative channels.
• The Nature of Humor and Taboo: Palahniuk delves into the power of humor in confronting difficult and taboo subjects. This theme explores the use of humor as a coping mechanism, a tool for social commentary, and a way to expose hypocrisy and double standards.
  • Palahniuk analyzes the comedic value of his short story “Mister Hans,” which involves a man’s death by a horse, arguing that the humor derives from the unexpected juxtaposition of a seemingly powerful figure with a humiliating demise.
  • He connects the story to the broader cultural tendency to find humor in the misfortunes of those perceived as privileged or powerful.
  • Palahniuk highlights the role of societal norms and expectations in shaping perceptions of humor, suggesting that what is considered funny can vary greatly depending on individual and cultural backgrounds.
  • He references Whoopi Goldberg’s stand-up routine about a coat hanger abortion, showcasing how humor can be used to confront serious and sensitive issues, even while simultaneously eliciting laughter and discomfort.
• The Dark Side of Human Nature and Trauma: The podcast delves into the complexities of human nature, exploring themes of trauma, violence, and the search for meaning. This theme investigates how past experiences shape individuals and the ways in which we cope with pain and suffering.
  • Palahniuk shares a personal story about his childhood, involving his father’s violent actions towards him and his siblings, highlighting the lasting impact of trauma on his own life.
  • He describes the unsettling encounter with a psychic who accurately predicted details about his father’s murder, adding a layer of mystery and coincidence to the story.
  • Palahniuk discusses his experience with numerology and tarot readings, suggesting that even without a clear explanation, these events can be profoundly impactful.
  • He uses his father’s murder as an example of how personal tragedies can be viewed as part of a larger pattern or destiny, exploring the human need for meaning even in the face of senseless violence.
• Head Trauma and Its Impact: Palahniuk explores the often-overlooked consequences of head trauma, both physical and psychological. This theme highlights the importance of understanding the long-term effects of brain injuries and the need for greater awareness and support for those affected.
  • He discusses the case of Roseanne Barr, whose public meltdown was linked to a traumatic brain injury she sustained as a teenager.
  • Palahniuk delves into the work of Meyer Bridge, a man who became a genius after suffering a severe head injury, showcasing the paradoxical relationship between trauma and creativity.
  • He emphasizes the connection between impulsivity and risk-taking behavior in people with brain trauma, suggesting both negative and positive implications for their lives.
  • Palahniuk advocates for caution regarding head trauma, sharing stories of individuals who have suffered lasting damage from brain injuries, underscoring the need for preventative measures and better care for those affected.
• The Curious Case of Toxoplasmosis: The podcast delves into the fascinating and often overlooked impact of the toxoplasmosis parasite. This theme explores the parasite’s unusual influence on human behavior, particularly its potential link to increased risk-taking and aggression.
  • Palahniuk discusses the research of Robert Sapolsky, a renowned neurobiologist, who found a correlation between toxoplasmosis infection and motorcycle accidents.
  • He explains the parasite’s complex evolutionary strategy, which involves manipulating the brains of rats to make them attracted to cat urine, increasing the likelihood of the rat being eaten by a cat and perpetuating the parasite’s life cycle.
  • Palahniuk highlights the parasite’s potential impact on human behavior, suggesting it could play a role in reckless and aggressive tendencies.
  • He explores the cultural phenomenon of fighters and athletes seeking to contract the parasite in order to enhance their performance, pointing to the parasite’s potential to increase pain tolerance and aggression.
• The Power of Rough Play and Physicality: Palahniuk touches on the importance of rough play in childhood development, suggesting that it can have a positive impact on resilience and self-expression.
  • He connects the theme to the success of “Fight Club,” arguing that its popularity stems from a desire for a cathartic release of unexpressed aggression and a yearning for physical confrontation, particularly in a society that often discourages such behaviors.
  • Palahniuk shares his own experiences with martial arts and sparring, acknowledging both the potential benefits and risks associated with physical combat.
  • He discusses the role of physicality in creative expression, suggesting that physical experiences can profoundly impact one’s artistic outlook.
  • Palahniuk emphasizes the need for caution and awareness regarding the long-term effects of head trauma, advocating for alternative forms of physical expression that minimize the risk of brain injury.
• The Value of Ritual and Gestures: Palahniuk explores the significance of ritual and gesture in human life, highlighting how these seemingly mundane actions can hold profound meaning and serve as a way to connect with our deeper selves.
  • He discusses his practice of burning his writing notebooks, seeing it as a form of cleansing and a symbolic release of the creative process.
  • Palahniuk draws on the work of Lewis Hyde, author of “The Gift,” to illuminate the concept of a gift as a gesture rather than simply an object.
  • He connects this idea to the notion of a “genius” or “gift” as a personal destiny, suggesting that we are each called to cultivate our unique talents and passions.
  • Palahniuk highlights the importance of embracing and nurturing our gifts, regardless of their nature, as a way to fulfill our purpose and live a meaningful life.
• The Nature of Success and Materialism: The podcast delves into the complexities of success and the impact of wealth on human behavior. This theme explores the allure of material possessions, the potential for self-destruction, and the search for lasting fulfillment.
  • Palahniuk recounts his own experience with early success, describing his purchase of large, decorative objects, such as “food dogs” and a golden Buddha, which he sees as a symbol of his newfound wealth.
  • He reflects on the common tendency for people who achieve success to indulge in extravagant purchases, often driven by a desire to prove themselves or validate their achievements.
  • Palahniuk shares his perspective on the limitations of material possessions, suggesting that true fulfillment cannot be found solely through acquiring wealth and material goods.
  • He emphasizes the importance of finding meaning beyond material success, highlighting the need for personal growth and a commitment to something larger than oneself.
• The Evolution of Pornography and Taboo: The podcast examines the ever-evolving landscape of pornography, exploring changes in cultural norms, the impact of language, and the enduring nature of taboo.
  • Palahniuk discusses the shift in language used to describe BDSM practices, noting the phasing out of “master/slave” terminology due to its perceived association with power dynamics and racism.
  • He observes the emergence of alternative metaphors, such as “daddy/boy” and “owner/puppy,” highlighting how societal shifts and changing attitudes influence erotic language.
  • Palahniuk explores the popularity of the “stepmom” genre in pornography, attributing its appeal to a perceived sense of forbidden desire and the transgression of social boundaries.
  • He considers the role of pornography in societal attitudes towards sex and sexuality, suggesting that its widespread consumption reflects a complex and often contradictory relationship with taboo.
• The Role of the “Nerd” and the “Incel”: Palahniuk examines the changing perceptions of “nerds” and the emergence of the “incel” subculture. This theme explores how societal pressures and anxieties can manifest in different ways, leading to both isolation and a sense of entitlement.
  • Palahniuk observes the historical allure of the “nerd” as a figure of intellectual prowess and social outsiderhood, suggesting a certain eroticism associated with their lack of conventional social engagement.
  • He contrasts this idealized image of the “nerd” with the emergence of the “incel” subculture, a group of men who feel alienated and resentful due to their perceived lack of romantic and sexual success.
  • Palahniuk explores the factors contributing to the rise of “incel” ideology, highlighting the role of societal pressures, online communities, and a sense of entitlement.
  • He raises questions about addressing the underlying causes of “incel” ideology, suggesting the need for a broader societal shift towards empathy, inclusion, and healthy expressions of masculinity.
• The Unsettling Nature of Animal Cruelty: The podcast concludes with a discussion on the discomfort and moral implications of animal cruelty. This theme explores the distinction between human-on-human violence and animal violence in media and how our perceptions of cruelty are shaped by context and empathy.
  • Palahniuk expresses strong disgust and aversion to a scene in the film “The House of Jack Built,” where a duckling’s leg is severed, contrasting his reaction to the graphic depiction of human violence in the same film.
  • He articulates his ethical position regarding animal cruelty, suggesting that it triggers a different level of discomfort due to the perceived innocence and vulnerability of animals.
  • Palahniuk explores the paradox of accepting animal violence in the context of food consumption while simultaneously rejecting it in media, highlighting the complexities of our relationship with animals.
  • He considers the ethical dilemmas presented by depicting animal cruelty in film and art, questioning the boundaries of artistic expression and the responsibility of filmmakers to portray sensitive themes with compassion and ethical considerations.
• The Importance of Honesty in Storytelling: The podcast reinforces the importance of honesty and authenticity in storytelling, particularly in a world where narratives are often sanitized or manipulated for commercial gain.
  • Palahniuk discusses the film “Alien” as a groundbreaking example of science fiction that embraced the realities of space travel, presenting a less glamorous and more human depiction of the future.
  • He contrasts “Alien” with the more idealized portrayals of space in films like “Star Wars” and “Star Trek,” suggesting that “Alien” resonated with a generation disillusioned by the promises of the past.
  • Palahniuk emphasizes the value of storytelling that reflects the complexities of human nature and the often-unpleasant truths of reality.
  • He advocates for a more honest and critical approach to storytelling, challenging the tendency to avoid confronting difficult issues or presenting a sanitized version of the world.
• The Role of Substack in Creative Expression: Palahniuk discusses the rise of Substack as a platform for writers seeking greater control over their work and a more direct connection with their audience.
  • He describes his experience with Substack as a positive one, providing greater freedom from editorial constraints and allowing him to engage more directly with his readers.
  • Palahniuk highlights the platform’s appeal to journalists and writers who are concerned about censorship and the limitations of traditional media outlets.
  • He emphasizes the importance of maintaining a direct relationship with one’s audience, recognizing the value of genuine engagement and authentic dialogue.
  • Palahniuk underscores the potential of Substack and similar platforms to foster a more independent and diverse creative landscape.
• The Importance of Physicality and Routine: Palahniuk underscores the significance of physicality and routine in maintaining mental and emotional well-being.
  • He describes his unique approach to exercise, which involves building a castle out of granite rocks, emphasizing the physical and mental challenges of this unconventional routine.
  • Palahniuk highlights the importance of exercise as a means of managing stress, improving physical health, and finding creative inspiration.
  • He discusses the benefits of exercise as a form of ritual, providing structure, routine, and a sense of accomplishment.
  • Palahniuk recognizes the role of physical activity in cultivating a sense of connection and camaraderie, suggesting that shared experiences of physical exertion can foster strong bonds and promote mental well-being.
• The Battle with the Algorithmic Mind: The episode explores the challenges of creative expression in a world increasingly dominated by algorithms and artificial intelligence.
  • Palahniuk discusses the limitations of writing solely on a computer, citing the intrusiveness of software that attempts to correct spelling, grammar, and even predict the next words, often hindering creative expression.
  • He highlights the value of writing by hand, using pen and paper, as a way to bypass these algorithmic controls and maintain a more direct connection with his thoughts and ideas.
  • Palahniuk emphasizes the importance of resisting the pressure to conform to standardized formats and expectations, advocating for a more authentic and unconventional approach to writing.
  • He recognizes the tension between efficiency and authenticity in the writing process, suggesting that sometimes the most compelling work emerges from embracing imperfections and allowing for creative freedom.
• The Power of Shared Experiences: Palahniuk emphasizes the importance of shared experiences in shaping our understanding of the world and connecting with others.
  • He discusses his creation of a “Study Hall” space, a dedicated workspace for writers to gather and work together, highlighting the benefits of shared focus and community.
  • Palahniuk connects this concept to the experience of writing on a plane, suggesting that being surrounded by others who are also working or engaged in a focused activity can enhance productivity and creativity.
  • He emphasizes the importance of finding supportive communities and environments that foster creativity and promote a sense of belonging.
  • Palahniuk recognizes the power of shared experiences in overcoming isolation, building connections, and promoting a sense of purpose.

Memorable Quotes:

• “The general idea is that life is so messed up and so unfixable. That we might as well go right to the crazy. And Vonnegut wrote it, Tom Robbins wrote it throughout the seventies, still life with woodpecker and matches, even cowgirls get the blues. Nathaniel West wrote it. At Scott Fitzgerald wrote it in the twenties. These people who had survived the Spanish flu and survived the 1st World War.”
• “There’s there’s something about writing and and reading that kind of stuff where you really you can never capture it in any other medium. And I think in some ways, even audiobooks don’t do justice to some of the darker ideas because you kinda wanna piece them together in your own mind.”
• “Well And because also, to be made literal enough to film or or even to be set out loud, kind of destroys that that intimacy where it only occurs in your mind. It occurs in a kind of subvocalization and in is a kind of sympathetic neural phenomenon that’s happening when you read a verb, studies have shown that your body thinks that you are running.”
• “So you either pretend that you’re a male that wants to challenge them and steal their women, or you pretend that you’re a female and that you’ve left whatever male used to have control of you because it’s generally speaking like it’s one bull elk that is the the the herd bowl.”
• “It doesn’t really matter. You know? There have been a lot of people. There will be a lot of people. So it doesn’t matter how bad I mess up. And if I mess up and I actually say something decent, But sometimes I wish there was somebody around, do you remember Flannery O’Connor? A good man is hard to find that the short story that she is most famous for?”