26-Aug-21
This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience features Laurie Woolever, author of “Bourdain: The Definitive Oral Biography” and co-host of the “Carbface for Radio” podcast. The conversation delves into the life and legacy of Anthony Bourdain, exploring his complex personality, his struggles with addiction, and his enduring influence on travel and food culture. Provocative topics include Tony’s relationship with his girlfriend, his addiction to jujitsu, and his unique perspective on the world. Underlying themes explore the challenges of fame, the allure and dangers of addiction, and the lasting impact of a singular voice.
1. Tony Bourdain’s Relationship with His Girlfriend
The podcast examines the tumultuous relationship Bourdain had with his girlfriend in the weeks leading up to his death. There were rumors and pictures that surfaced in the Italian and French press suggesting she may have been unfaithful. The podcast suggests that Bourdain was deeply in love and devastated by the humiliation of the public scrutiny of their relationship.
2. Tony Bourdain’s Addiction to Jujitsu
The podcast discusses Bourdain’s late-life passion for jujitsu, which Woolever describes as a form of self-discovery and a way to cope with the challenges of fame and his own inner demons. She recounts how Bourdain embraced the rigorous training and how the discipline and physicality of the sport became a major part of his life. The conversation suggests that jujitsu was a source of both physical and mental satisfaction for Bourdain, providing him with an outlet for his competitive spirit and a sense of purpose.
3. Tony Bourdain’s Complex Personality
The podcast highlights the contrast between Bourdain’s public persona and his private struggles. Woolever describes him as a genuinely humble man who was deeply troubled and often felt like a fraud despite his fame and success. She shares personal anecdotes that illustrate Bourdain’s self-doubt and his struggles with impostor syndrome.
4. Tony Bourdain’s Legacy
The podcast celebrates Bourdain’s lasting impact on travel and food culture. Woolever emphasizes his unique ability to elevate food to an art form and his profound understanding of the interconnectedness of food, culture, and human experience. She notes how Bourdain’s work inspired countless people to explore the world and to appreciate the beauty of different cultures.
5. The Dangers of Addiction
The podcast underscores the dangers of addiction, both in Bourdain’s own life and in the lives of those around him. Woolever shares her personal experience with addiction and how she came to recognize Bourdain’s own struggles. She describes how Bourdain’s addictive personality manifested in various aspects of his life, from drugs and alcohol to work and travel.
6. The Importance of Authenticity
The podcast emphasizes the value of authenticity in both Bourdain’s work and in life. Woolever praises Bourdain’s ability to be himself on camera, despite his occasional clumsiness, and how this genuineness resonated with audiences. She contrasts this with the polished, superficial nature of many television personalities.
7. The Challenges of Fame
The podcast examines the challenges of fame, particularly for someone as introspective and self-critical as Bourdain. Woolever describes how Bourdain grappled with the pressure of being in the public eye and how he struggled to reconcile his past with his present.
8. The Role of Physical Conflict
The podcast explores the importance of physical conflict in human development, particularly for men. Woolever suggests that the lack of physical conflict in modern life can contribute to anxiety and that activities like jujitsu, trail running, and CrossFit can help to address this need.
9. The Importance of Listening and Respect
The podcast highlights Bourdain’s ability to listen and engage with people who held different perspectives. Woolever praises his open-mindedness and his willingness to challenge his own beliefs. She emphasizes the importance of respectful dialogue even in the face of disagreement.
10. The Value of Humility
The podcast celebrates Bourdain’s humility and his ability to recognize his own limitations. Woolever describes how he never took his success for granted and how he remained grounded despite his accomplishments.
11. The Importance of Storytelling
The podcast emphasizes the power of storytelling and Bourdain’s unique talent as a narrator. Woolever discusses how Bourdain’s ability to weave compelling narratives made his work so engaging and how he used his voice to explore the complexities of human experience.
12. The Kitchen as a Crucible
The podcast explores the role of the kitchen in shaping Bourdain’s character and his worldview. Woolever describes the demanding nature of the restaurant industry and how it fostered a sense of discipline, camaraderie, and resilience in Bourdain. She notes how the kitchen became a microcosm of the world, with its own set of rules and rituals.
13. The Impact of Travel on Bourdain
The podcast explores the profound impact of travel on Bourdain’s life and work. Woolever discusses how Bourdain’s experiences in different cultures shaped his understanding of the world and how he used his travels to connect with diverse communities.
14. The Romantic Nature of Bourdain’s Life and Death
The podcast acknowledges the romanticism surrounding Bourdain’s life and death. Woolever notes that his dramatic life story and tragic end have contributed to his legend. However, she also emphasizes the pain and suffering that Bourdain’s death caused for those who loved him.
15. The Importance of Mental Health
The podcast implicitly addresses the importance of mental health, particularly in the context of Bourdain’s struggles with addiction and depression. Woolever shares her own experience with addiction and emphasizes the importance of seeking help and support.
16. The Unpredictable Nature of Life
The podcast highlights the unpredictable nature of life and how quickly things can change. Woolever’s experience with Bourdain’s death serves as a reminder of the fragility of life and the importance of cherishing every moment.
17. The Power of Enthusiasm
The podcast celebrates Bourdain’s infectious enthusiasm, which he brought to everything he did. Woolever describes how Bourdain’s passion for food, travel, and people was evident in all aspects of his life.
18. The Unfolding of Bourdain’s Legacy
The podcast acknowledges the ongoing unfolding of Bourdain’s legacy. Woolever notes that his influence on food culture and travel continues to grow and that his impact on the world is far from over.
19. The Power of Storytelling to Shape Culture
The podcast implicitly explores the power of storytelling to shape culture and to influence how we perceive the world. Bourdain’s ability to tell compelling stories about food, travel, and human experience had a profound impact on audiences, shaping their views and inspiring them to explore new horizons.
20. The Role of Food as a Window into Culture
The podcast delves into the role of food as a window into different cultures and a way to connect with people from different backgrounds. Bourdain’s understanding of food as a cultural expression was central to his work, and it continues to inspire those who seek to explore the world through its cuisine.
5 Memorable Quotes
- “It’s always just feeling when someone takes their own life, like, if I could’ve just talked to them. Mhmm. Like, if I was there, if I could talk to him. Mhmm. That’s, you know, I talked to David Cho, and he had he had that same. They have that same take on it. You know? Just you just don’t know. You know? You feel like You you fucked something up, boy, to feel like it. It’s just it’s there’s no there’s no there’s no peace. You know? If you’re always if I think about him, I I I just always think, like, what a shame. What a shame. You know?” – This quote captures the profound sense of loss and the lingering question of “what if” that accompanies suicide.
- “You know, he was very upfront about his heroin addiction and his, you know, heavy use of cocaine and crack later, and then he kicked those things. You know? But I think that, you know, as somebody who who has been sober for a couple of years and has kind of myself kind of, you know, dived into the whole exploration of the of the 12 step thing. I can see now I can see what it is to be an addict. You know, and I don’t think it’s talking out of turn to say that Tony was an addict. He lived his life like an addict. You know, whether it was drugs, or drinking or smoking cigarettes or jujitsu or work or travel or, you know, romantic relationships. I mean, he just you know, just went after more and more and more stimulating experiences in a way that it didn’t ever seem there was gonna be enough of whatever it was to fill that that place, you know, that addicts are trying to fill.” – This quote provides a poignant insight into Bourdain’s addictive personality and how it shaped his approach to life.
- “It was it was I just it’s all bullshit. I’m I’m embarrassed that people have paid money to come and see me talk. You know? It was really illustrative to me, to to hear him talk like that, you know, to realize, like, he doesn’t he doesn’t think he’s as great as we know he is. You know?” – This quote reveals Bourdain’s humility and his struggles with impostor syndrome, highlighting the internal conflict between his public image and his private doubts.
- “I mean, it’s it’s it just made for you know, if he maybe I don’t know what how good of a chef he was, but man, he was a fucking amazing host of a television show. Yeah. I mean, it was really it was like the perfect guy for a travel show. Mhmm. Mhmm. And and writer. I mean, that’s — Mhmm. — and that’s really what broke him through out of the kitchen. It was not his television presence, which was a little clunky at first. You know, I mean, he didn’t he wasn’t he didn’t spring fully formed as the, you know, confident guy that we saw in later years. If if you go back and when you’re ready to watch the film or or you’ll see in the book too, you know, he was he was a little awkward and quite more than a little hesitant on television at first. But what he always was was a fucking fantastic writer, you know, from very very young age and and worked really hard at that to develop that craft. And that’s I mean, that’s what comes through on television too is all that voice over he wrote that, you know, and the way that he could speak off the cuff like it was something that was written and edited and perfected. That that was just in his head. And he spoke like a writer. Yeah.” – This quote emphasizes Bourdain’s talent as a writer and how this skill translated into his captivating television presence.
- “It’s like, this is the shit where America Fuck you. Mhmm. And, you know, then you go to other places and you go, oh, okay. Why are they so happy in Thailand? You know? Like, you look Yeah. Like, what’s going on? Like, why why are they so why are they celebrate so much in Brazil? You know, they’re in you as you do visit all these different places, I think he had this almost bottomless appetite for that sort of exposure to new cultures and meeting new people. Mhmm. and was really good at listening and and being able to hear and engage with an argument or a point of view that didn’t match his — Right. — which I think got it. You know, I mean, there’s a million reasons why I wish he were still here, but that is one of the, you know, right at the top is this capacity that he had to have a conversation with people who disagreed with him, you know, without just trying to shut them down. I mean, he had very strong opinions about things, but it didn’t stop him from just communicating with people, which is it’s, you know, it’s not easy. I’m sure you know this. You know people get real. riled up and then don’t even wanna just have a discussion about whatever it is that’s that’s, you know, that they disagree about. Yeah. It’s it’s very it’s a very valuable thing if you can do it — Mhmm. — to be able to just talk to people even if you disagree with them.” – This quote highlights Bourdain’s open-mindedness and his ability to engage in meaningful dialogue with people who held different views, a quality that is increasingly rare in today’s polarized world.