9-Jun-21
This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience features Josh Dubin, a criminal justice reform advocate, attorney, and Ambassador Advisor to the Innocence Project. Rogan and Dubin discuss a variety of topics, from boxing and MMA to the complexities of the American justice system. Provocative themes emerge about the nature of success, the allure and dangers of combat sports, and the need for reform in how we approach criminal justice.
1. The Love-Hate Relationship with Golf:
Dubin admits to a conflicted relationship with golf, acknowledging its peaceful nature but also hating how much it exposes his own insecurity.
He dislikes the culture of golf, particularly the pressure to perform and the perception of it as a business tool.
Dubin discusses his personal struggles with the game, particularly his inability to hit the ball consistently.
The conversation reveals a broader discussion of athleticism and skill, highlighting the dedication required to excel in any field.
2. The Existential Angst of Combat Sports:
Rogan and Dubin grapple with the inherent contradictions of combat sports, acknowledging the inherent danger and violence involved.
They express a deep respect for fighters, recognizing their bravery and the emotional toll they endure.
The conversation touches on the ethical considerations of sanctioned violence, the potential for long-term brain damage, and the responsibility of those involved.
Despite the inherent dangers, Rogan and Dubin express admiration for the skill, dedication, and resilience of fighters.
3. The Rise of Exhibition Fights and the “Freak Show” Mentality:
The podcast explores the growing popularity of exhibition fights, featuring figures like Logan Paul and Floyd Mayweather.
Dubin and Rogan discuss the underlying reasons for this trend, suggesting it stems from a desire to see the unexpected and the possibility of a “train wreck.”
The conversation raises questions about the future of professional boxing and MMA, with a growing emphasis on entertainment over pure athleticism.
Dubin reflects on the value of skilled fighters like Lennox Lewis and Andre Ward, who often don’t receive the same recognition as those involved in “freak show” matches.
4. The Untapped Potential of Boxing as a Business:
Dubin sheds light on the often exploitative nature of the boxing business, particularly regarding the financial treatment of fighters.
He describes the “rabid vultures” who prey on fighters, taking advantage of their lack of knowledge and resources.
Dubin acknowledges the role of promoters like Don King in the exploitation of fighters, highlighting the need for greater transparency and fairness.
He emphasizes the importance of having strong representation and advocates for greater awareness of the financial risks involved in professional boxing.
5. Deontay Wilder’s Unorthodox Style:
Rogan and Dubin discuss Deontay Wilder’s unique boxing style, characterized by his incredible power and limited technical proficiency.
They highlight Wilder’s “eraser” punch, which has the ability to erase an opponent’s consciousness with a single blow.
The conversation touches on Wilder’s strengths and weaknesses, suggesting his style is effective in certain situations but leaves him vulnerable to skilled opponents.
Dubin and Rogan analyze Wilder’s fight against Tyson Fury, examining how Fury’s strategy of pressuring Wilder proved successful in the later rounds.
6. The Legacy of George Foreman:
The podcast features a detailed discussion of George Foreman’s boxing career, spanning his dominance in the 1970s, his retirement, and his remarkable comeback in the 1990s.
Rogan and Dubin share their admiration for Foreman’s power, resilience, and incredible journey, highlighting his transition from boxer to preacher and back again.
They analyze Foreman’s unique style, particularly his reliance on a powerful left hook and his ability to withstand punishment.
The discussion touches on Foreman’s impact on boxing and his legacy as one of the greatest heavyweights of all time.
7. The Remarkable Career of Andre Ward:
Dubin shares his personal admiration for Andre Ward, a boxer he represented during his career.
He describes Ward as a once-in-a-lifetime athlete, emphasizing his exceptional skill, dedication, and character.
Dubin highlights Ward’s ability to overcome adversity, including a challenging childhood and a career-threatening injury.
He praises Ward’s decision to retire undefeated, acknowledging his commitment to preserving his legacy and ensuring his health.
8. The “Unseen” Impact of the Entourage:
Dubin discusses the often overlooked influence of entourages on fighters, particularly their role in shaping decisions and perpetuating harmful behaviors.
He points to examples like Muhammad Ali, who continued to fight despite significant injuries and the concerns of his entourage.
Dubin highlights the potential for an entourage to pressure fighters into making risky decisions, ultimately impacting their long-term health and well-being.
The conversation touches on the ethical considerations of those who surround fighters, emphasizing their responsibility to prioritize the athlete’s best interests.
9. The Complexities of Eyewitness Testimony:
Dubin dives into the reliability of eyewitness testimony, a crucial element in many criminal trials.
He highlights the scientific evidence demonstrating the unreliability of human memory, particularly when it comes to recalling traumatic events.
Dubin emphasizes the need for caution when relying on eyewitness testimony as primary evidence, highlighting the potential for misidentification and wrongful convictions.
He suggests that jurors should be educated about the fallibility of human memory to prevent the miscarriage of justice.
10. The “Game” of Criminal Justice:
Dubin exposes the flawed nature of the American justice system, arguing that it often functions as a game of winning and losing rather than seeking truth and justice.
He criticizes the practice of prosecutors and police who prioritize convictions over ensuring the accuracy of evidence and the fairness of the process.
The conversation highlights the systemic biases that disproportionately impact people of color, particularly in the realm of drug offenses.
Dubin advocates for a more balanced approach to criminal justice, emphasizing the need for evidence-based decisions, a presumption of innocence, and greater focus on rehabilitation.
11. The Power of Pressure and Public Awareness:
Dubin argues that public awareness and pressure are essential for driving criminal justice reform.
He highlights the importance of sharing stories of wrongful convictions and exposing the shortcomings of the system.
He believes that by raising public awareness, we can create pressure on politicians and law enforcement to implement necessary changes.
Dubin suggests that by engaging in open dialogue and challenging assumptions, we can dismantle the “us versus them” mentality that fuels injustice.
12. The Redemption Project:
Dubin shares his vision for a new criminal justice reform center, “The Redemption Project,” aimed at providing resources and support for those who have been wrongly convicted or disproportionately sentenced.
He explains the project’s mission to partner with law students and provide second chances for individuals who have been impacted by the flawed justice system.
Dubin’s passion for this project stems from his belief that everyone deserves a chance at redemption and that we can create a more equitable and humane system.
The project represents a tangible effort to address the systemic injustices that plague the American criminal justice system.
13. The Shocking Case of Jawad Musa:
Dubin recounts the remarkable story of Jawad Musa, a man who was sentenced to life in prison for a nonviolent drug offense that was later revealed to be a scheme by informants.
He describes Musa’s long struggle for exoneration, his dedication to education while incarcerated, and his eventual release after a presidential pardon.
Dubin details his personal involvement in the case, including his meeting with President Trump and his efforts to secure Musa’s freedom.
The story highlights the devastating impact of wrongful convictions and the need for greater scrutiny in the justice system.
14. The Importance of Understanding:
Dubin stresses the importance of understanding and empathy in addressing systemic injustices.
He argues that judging individuals based on stereotypes or assumptions can lead to harmful and unjust outcomes.
Dubin encourages open communication, honest conversations, and a willingness to challenge our own biases.
He emphasizes that by fostering a culture of understanding, we can create a more just and equitable society.
15. The “Let Them Eat Cake” Mentality:
Dubin criticizes the “Let Them Eat Cake” mentality that he believes pervades American society, particularly regarding the treatment of marginalized communities.
He challenges the assumption that individuals can simply pull themselves up by their bootstraps without acknowledging the systemic barriers that exist.
Dubin highlights the lasting impact of slavery and segregation, arguing that we cannot expect those who have been historically disadvantaged to overcome these challenges alone.
He advocates for a more proactive approach to addressing systemic racism and inequity, recognizing the need for social and economic justice.
16. The Unexpected Ally in Criminal Justice Reform:
Dubin reveals his unlikely friendship with Ike Perlmutter, a billionaire and the chairman of Marvel Entertainment, who became an unexpected advocate for criminal justice reform.
He describes Perlmutter’s journey from skepticism to passionate supporter, highlighting his personal involvement in securing a presidential pardon for Jawad Musa.
The conversation challenges the stereotype of wealthy individuals as uncaring and disconnected, demonstrating that compassion and empathy can exist across political and socioeconomic divides.
Dubin’s story underscores the power of individual action and the potential for even the most unlikely individuals to become champions for justice.
17. The Journey of Francis Ngannou:
The podcast explores the remarkable story of Francis Ngannou, a heavyweight champion in the UFC who overcame a harrowing journey from poverty and hardship in Cameroon to global success.
Rogan and Dubin discuss Ngannou’s resilience, his incredible power, and his dedication to his craft.
They share their admiration for Ngannou’s humility and his ability to inspire others with his story.
The conversation highlights Ngannou’s triumph over adversity and his ability to break through seemingly insurmountable barriers.
18. The Importance of Lifting People Up:
Dubin reflects on the power of encouragement and support, advocating for a culture that celebrates success and lifts people up rather than tearing them down.
He emphasizes the importance of finding joy in the achievements of others, acknowledging that our own insecurities can lead us to diminish the accomplishments of those who are different from us.
Dubin believes that by embracing a more positive and supportive outlook, we can foster a more productive and compassionate society.
He encourages listeners to actively seek out opportunities to celebrate the achievements of others and to create a culture of encouragement and empowerment.
19. The Power of Honesty and Vulnerability:
The podcast explores the significance of honesty and vulnerability in building genuine connections and fostering meaningful change.
Dubin emphasizes the need to move beyond superficial conversations and engage in deeper dialogue that allows us to understand each other’s perspectives.
He highlights the importance of being willing to challenge our own biases, to confront our own insecurities, and to be open to the possibility of learning from others.
Dubin believes that by embracing vulnerability and fostering genuine connections, we can create a more just and compassionate world.
20. The Need for a More Humane Justice System:
The podcast concludes with a call to action for a more humane and just criminal justice system.
Dubin emphasizes the need to challenge the status quo, to dismantle systemic biases, and to prioritize the well-being of all individuals.
He encourages listeners to actively engage in criminal justice reform, to support organizations like the Innocence Project, and to raise awareness of the issues that plague the system.
Dubin believes that by working together, we can create a more equitable and compassionate society where justice is truly served.
Memorable Quotes:
“I’m haunted by how much time I have and have left.” – Dubin reveals the weight of time and the urgency he feels to make a difference.
“You can’t cure everything, but if you can touch a few people’s lives along the way, then you’ve done your job.” – Dubin reflects on the impact he has had on the lives of fighters and his current focus on criminal justice reform.
“You can’t expect these people to just figure it out on their own.” – Dubin critiques the societal expectations placed on those who come from marginalized communities, urging for a more proactive approach to addressing systemic inequities.
“You know what, I’m gonna keep on giving it away because I’m gonna keep on pouring it into resources because that will be lasting.” – Dubin expresses his commitment to investing in causes that address social justice issues, even if it means sacrificing personal wealth.
“I don’t care about any of that. I’m trying to save a life.” – Dubin demonstrates his unwavering commitment to helping those who have been wrongly accused, even if it means crossing political lines or confronting uncomfortable situations.