13-Nov-20
Joe Rogan Podcast: #1564 – Adam Alter
In this insightful and thought-provoking podcast, Joe Rogan interviews Adam Alter, a Professor of Marketing at New York University’s Stern School of Business, renowned for his expertise on the addictive nature of technology. They delve into the psychology behind our digital dependence and explore the potential consequences for individual well-being and society as a whole.
Major Topics and Themes:
- The Addictive Nature of Technology:
- Alter shares his personal experience becoming engrossed in the game Flappy Bird for six hours straight on a flight, highlighting how even simple, seemingly innocuous apps can become incredibly addictive.
- He explores the key design features that contribute to this addictiveness, such as the lack of “stopping cues” (like a “game over” screen) and the constant scrolling nature of social media platforms.
- The conversation touches upon other highly addictive games, including World of Warcraft, Fortnite, and Quake, emphasizing the immersive qualities and competitive aspects that contribute to their grip on users.
- Alter posits that the design of modern technology effectively short-circuits our natural decision-making processes, making it incredibly difficult to disengage, even when we consciously want to.
- The Evolution of Technology and Its Impact:
- Rogan and Alter speculate about the future of technology and its potential convergence with virtual and augmented reality, drawing parallels with the Matrix.
- They discuss the possibility of implants, such as Neuralink, and the potential impact on human capabilities and the way we interact with the world.
- The pandemic is brought up as a catalyst for increased reliance on screens and a potential driver for further technological integration into our lives.
- Despite the potential benefits of technology, Rogan expresses concern about the potential for isolation and a diminished human experience as a result of our growing dependence on it.
- The Social and Ethical Responsibility of Tech Companies:
- Alter criticizes the incentive model prevalent in many tech companies, where extracting attention and maximizing user time take precedence over promoting well-being.
- He argues that these companies have a moral responsibility to consider the potential negative consequences of their products, particularly the addictive elements.
- The conversation explores the effectiveness of warning labels, with Alter and Rogan concluding that they are likely ineffective due to the widespread awareness of the potential harms of technology.
- Alter proposes alternative models, such as user-paid subscriptions with no advertising, as a potential way to shift the focus from maximizing attention to promoting user satisfaction and value.
- Finding Balance and Solutions:
- The podcast emphasizes the importance of individual awareness and personal interventions as key strategies for mitigating the negative impacts of technology.
- Alter advocates for simple, analog solutions like physical distance from devices, time-based limits, and minimizing distractions during important activities.
- He highlights the importance of cultivating a mindful approach to technology use, questioning the purpose and value of our interactions with screens.
- Rogan and Alter stress the need for education, particularly for children, to foster critical thinking skills, digital hygiene, and awareness of the potential pitfalls of technology.
- The Power of Human Connection:
- The podcast acknowledges the potential for technology to enhance human connection, especially during times of isolation, but also highlights the potential for technology to exacerbate social isolation.
- Alter and Rogan emphasize the importance of real-world interactions, physical activities, and genuine human connection as essential counterweights to our digital dependence.
- The conversation underscores the unique challenges facing parents and educators in a world dominated by immersive technology, stressing the need for guidance and support.
- They suggest that empowering individuals, particularly children, with critical thinking skills and a healthy understanding of technology’s potential impact could be crucial in navigating the evolving digital landscape.
Memorable Quotes:
- “The thing about Flappy Bird is the bird when he crashes, he just automatically reanimates, and he starts flying again. And it almost feels rude to the bird at that point to say, I’m not gonna keep playing.” – Adam Alter describes the subtle, yet powerful, design feature that makes Flappy Bird so difficult to resist.
- “I’ve gotta say, I mean, life in the last decade in particular has has got way stranger than fiction.” – Joe Rogan reflects on the rapid pace of technological development and its increasingly surreal impact on our lives.
- “We’re up against very powerful, impressive foes, and they know all the right buzz buttons to push. And if they don’t know, they’ll collect data to be able to answer that question, and then they’ll they’ll institute those practices in their products.” – Adam Alter emphasizes the sophisticated techniques used by tech companies to exploit our psychological vulnerabilities.
- “The data don’t lie, and the data suggests that the amount of time we’re spending in front of screens has gone up dramatically. And when you speak to people about it, they don’t say I’m happy about that. They say, what what is going on? Where is all that time going?” – Joe Rogan highlights the growing disconnect between our actual screen time and our perceived awareness of it.
- “The ultimate problem for us is that we we prize ease, comfort, well-being, happiness overall else. And so give us something that’ll help us do that, and we will we’ll be like mindless animals that don’t actually have a brain, and we’ll keep moving in that direction.” – Adam Alter expresses concern about our potential for surrendering our agency in pursuit of immediate gratification.