JRE #1456 – Michael Shermer

9-Apr-20

This podcast features a conversation between Joe Rogan and Michael Shermer, a science writer, historian of science, and founder of The Skeptics Society. They discuss various topics related to the COVID-19 pandemic, its impact on society, the importance of critical thinking, and the dangers of polarization and conspiracy theories. Provocative topics include the economic trade-offs of social isolation, the role of government in public health, the potential for contact-tracing technology to infringe on civil liberties, and the dangers of online echo chambers. Underlying themes explore the importance of evidence-based decision-making, the challenges of navigating a complex and rapidly evolving world, and the human tendency towards tribalism and confirmation bias.

Major Topics

1. The Economic Impact of Social Isolation: This topic explores the difficult economic trade-offs that governments and individuals face in the context of the pandemic. While social isolation is seen as necessary to slow the spread of the virus, it also has devastating consequences for businesses, jobs, and the overall economy.
   1. The potential for widespread business closures and job losses due to prolonged lockdowns.
   2. The difficulty of calculating the economic cost of human life and the need for a balance between public health and economic survival.
   3. The challenge of distributing government stimulus funds effectively and avoiding runaway inflation.
   4. The potential for social unrest and disruptions in the supply chain if economic hardship continues.
2. Government’s Role in Public Health: This topic explores the complex and controversial role of government in managing a pandemic, balancing individual liberties with the need for collective safety.
   1. The tension between individual freedom and public health mandates, especially regarding social distancing and other restrictions.
   2. The potential for overreach by government authorities, especially during a state of emergency.
   3. The importance of transparency and accountability in government decision-making during a crisis.
   4. The lessons learned from other countries, such as South Korea and Germany, that have been more successful in managing the pandemic.
3. Contact-Tracing Technology and Privacy: This topic explores the potential benefits and risks of using contact-tracing technology to track the spread of the virus. While this technology could help to contain the pandemic, it also raises concerns about the erosion of privacy and the potential for misuse by government authorities.
   1. The trade-off between privacy and public health, and the need for careful consideration of the potential consequences of using this technology.
   2. The potential for this technology to be used for surveillance or other purposes beyond its intended use.
   3. The need for transparency and oversight in the development and deployment of contact-tracing technology.
   4. The importance of safeguarding civil liberties and ensuring that individuals are not unnecessarily surveilled.
4. Online Echo Chambers and Polarization: This topic examines the impact of online echo chambers on political discourse and the growing polarization of society. The podcast explores how social media platforms can create environments where individuals are only exposed to information that confirms their existing beliefs, reinforcing existing biases and hindering constructive dialogue.
   1. The dangers of online echo chambers and the role they play in reinforcing existing biases and hindering constructive dialogue.
   2. The importance of seeking out diverse perspectives and engaging with those who hold different views.
   3. The challenges of navigating a polarized political landscape and the need for civility and respect in online discussions.
   4. The importance of critical thinking and media literacy in navigating a world saturated with information and misinformation.
5. The Importance of Critical Thinking and Skepticism: This topic emphasizes the importance of critical thinking and skepticism in navigating a world filled with misinformation and conspiracy theories. The podcast highlights the need for evidence-based decision-making and the dangers of relying on anecdotal evidence or unsubstantiated claims.
   1. The dangers of conspiracy theories and the role they play in spreading misinformation and distrust.
   2. The importance of evaluating information critically, identifying sources, and verifying facts.
   3. The need for skepticism in evaluating claims, especially those that seem too good to be true or that appeal to emotional biases.
   4. The role of science and reason in providing reliable information and evidence-based insights.
6. The Dangers of Polarization and Tribalism: This topic explores the dangers of political polarization and the tendency for individuals to identify strongly with their political tribes. The podcast highlights how this can lead to a breakdown in communication, an inability to compromise, and a decline in civil discourse.
   1. The dangers of political polarization and how it can lead to a breakdown in communication, an inability to compromise, and a decline in civil discourse.
   2. The importance of recognizing the complexities of issues and avoiding oversimplification and demonization of opposing viewpoints.
   3. The need for empathy and understanding, even when disagreeing with others.
   4. The role of shared values and common ground in bridging political divides.
7. The Value of Open Discourse and Challenging Established Beliefs: The podcast emphasizes the importance of open discourse and the need to challenge established beliefs, even those that are widely accepted. Shermer argues that listening to dissenting voices, even if they are uncomfortable, is crucial for intellectual growth and a deeper understanding of complex issues.
   1. The value of open discourse and the need to challenge established beliefs, even those that are widely accepted.
   2. The importance of listening to dissenting voices, even if they are uncomfortable, and engaging in thoughtful dialogue.
   3. The dangers of silencing dissenting voices and the potential for this to stifle intellectual progress and critical thinking.
   4. The need for humility and a willingness to change one’s mind when presented with compelling evidence.
8. The Nature of Moral Progress and the Importance of Perspective: This topic explores the complexities of moral progress and the challenges of navigating a world where people hold different moral values. The podcast highlights the importance of understanding the perspectives of others, even those who hold beliefs that we find abhorrent.
   1. The importance of recognizing that moral progress is a gradual process and that we must be patient and persistent in our efforts to improve society.
   2. The dangers of falling into the trap of binary thinking and recognizing that most moral issues are complex and nuanced.
   3. The importance of seeking out diverse perspectives and engaging in thoughtful dialogue with those who hold different moral values.
   4. The need for empathy and understanding, even when disagreeing with others about moral issues.
9. The Role of Humor and Social Commentary in Challenging Norms: This topic explores the power of humor and social commentary in challenging established norms and promoting social change. The podcast highlights how comedians and satirists can use their art to expose hypocrisy, question authority, and challenge the status quo.
   1. The power of humor in exposing hypocrisy, questioning authority, and challenging the status quo.
   2. The role of social commentary in promoting social change and encouraging critical thinking.
   3. The importance of finding humor in the absurdities of life and using it as a tool for understanding and acceptance.
   4. The dangers of censorship and the need to protect the right to free speech, even when it is uncomfortable or offensive.
10. The Importance of Personal Responsibility and Taking Care of One’s Health: This topic underscores the importance of personal responsibility and taking care of one’s health, particularly during a pandemic. The podcast emphasizes the role of lifestyle factors, such as diet, exercise, and stress management, in boosting the immune system and promoting overall well-being.
    1. The importance of personal responsibility and taking care of one’s health, particularly during a pandemic.
    2. The role of lifestyle factors, such as diet, exercise, and stress management, in boosting the immune system and promoting overall well-being.
    3. The need for individuals to take proactive steps to protect their health, even when faced with challenges.
    4. The dangers of complacency and the importance of remaining vigilant about one’s health.
11. The Perpetuation of Conspiracy Theories and the Erosion of Trust in Institutions: This topic delves into the reasons behind the persistence of conspiracy theories and the erosion of trust in institutions, particularly in the context of the pandemic. The podcast explores how factors such as the internet, social media, and a lack of trust in authority contribute to the spread of misinformation and conspiracy theories.
    1. The ease with which misinformation and conspiracy theories spread online, especially through social media platforms.
    2. The role of distrust in institutions and authority in fueling conspiracy theories.
    3. The need for individuals to be critical consumers of information and to verify facts before sharing them.
    4. The importance of promoting media literacy and fostering a culture of critical thinking.
12. The Power of Personal Connection and Empathy in Bridging Divides: This topic emphasizes the importance of personal connection and empathy in bridging divides and promoting understanding. The podcast highlights how interpersonal interactions, even with those who hold different views, can foster empathy and create opportunities for meaningful dialogue.
    1. The power of personal connection and empathy in fostering understanding and breaking down barriers.
    2. The importance of engaging in meaningful dialogue with those who hold different views and seeking to understand their perspectives.
    3. The role of interpersonal relationships in promoting tolerance and acceptance.
    4. The need to challenge our own biases and assumptions and to cultivate a more inclusive and empathetic worldview.
13. The Importance of Recognizing the Human Tendency Towards Tribalism and Confirmation Bias: This topic explores the deeply rooted human tendency towards tribalism and confirmation bias. The podcast highlights how these psychological factors can lead to an overreliance on in-group thinking, an unwillingness to consider alternative perspectives, and an increased susceptibility to misinformation.
    1. The natural human tendency towards tribalism and confirmation bias, and how these factors can influence our beliefs and behaviors.
    2. The importance of recognizing and challenging our own biases and seeking out diverse perspectives.
    3. The need to be aware of the dangers of in-group thinking and to cultivate a more open and critical mindset.
    4. The role of education and critical thinking in mitigating the negative effects of tribalism and confirmation bias.

Memorable Quotes

1. “At the at the moment, we’re in the mode of there’s no dollar amount you could put on a human life. Therefore, total social isolation no matter what does in the economy is what we’re gonna do now.” – Joe Rogan emphasizes the current prevailing sentiment that human life is priceless and justifies extreme measures to protect it, regardless of economic consequences.
2. “The idea of putting a dollar figure on a human life is repulsive to most of us, I think, intuitively, in this context. But in fact, we do it all the time.” – Michael Shermer highlights the inherent contradiction in our attitudes towards valuing human life, as we often implicitly assign monetary values to it in various contexts, such as legal settlements for wrongful death.
3. “You know, I I think maybe we should, you know, drop all the the polarization politically rally around the president even if you hate him.” – Joe Rogan proposes a temporary suspension of political polarization and a united front against a common threat, citing the example of the aftermath of 9/11 when a similar unity emerged.
4. “You know, in our our mutual favorite subjects of conspiracy theories. You know, we didn’t know about a lot of the things Kennedy was doing in Johnson. You know, all the way back to Eisenhower lying about the Vietnam war, for example, until the Pentagon papers came out.” – Michael Shermer acknowledges the disturbing reality that many conspiracy theories are based on real events and hidden agendas, citing historical examples like the Pentagon Papers and the Operation Northwoods plan.
5. “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.” – Joe Rogan quotes the famous line from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. in the case of Schenck v. United States, outlining the legal principle that free speech is not absolute and can be restricted when it poses a clear and present danger to public safety.