JRE #614 – Christopher Ryan, PhD

This podcast features a conversation between Joe Rogan and Christopher Ryan, a psychologist and author of the New York Times bestseller “Sex at Dawn”. They discuss a wide range of topics, from the nature of consciousness and human evolution to the use of hallucinogens and the absurdity of modern culture.

The podcast delves into provocative, controversial, and viral themes like the true nature of human sexuality, the validity of Darwinian evolution, the ethics of genetic engineering, and the meaning of existence in the face of mortality.

Here’s a breakdown of the major topics explored in the podcast:

1. The Nature of Hippie Culture: Ryan and Rogan discuss the evolution of Portland, Oregon, as a hippie haven and how its culture has changed over the years. They question the authenticity of “hippie” identities and the potential for hypocrisy within seemingly progressive movements.
   • Ryan suggests that people often adopt hippie-like personas as a form of social signaling or a way to reject traditional societal norms.
   • Rogan observes that the hippies of today are often more judgmental and intolerant than their predecessors.
   • They discuss how “smugness” has become a characteristic of Portland’s current culture, possibly due to a shift in the demographics of those who choose to live there.
   • Ryan and Rogan highlight the irony of the “hippie” aesthetic becoming commercialized and commodified, with the sale of expensive, worn-out clothing as an example.
2. The Impact of Aging: Rogan and Ryan discuss their experiences with aging, including hair loss, gray hair, and the inevitability of death. They explore different perspectives on the aging process, ranging from fighting against the decline of the body to embracing the darkness and the finiteness of life.
   • Rogan shares his personal struggles with balding and the decision to shave his head, highlighting the societal pressures associated with maintaining a youthful appearance.
   • Ryan expresses his hope that old age and fatness will become more accepted in the future, suggesting that our standards of beauty are often based on arbitrary and superficial criteria.
   • They discuss the concept of “rage against the dying of the light” and how different people cope with the realization of mortality. Some choose to fight against death with vigor, while others seek to find meaning in the present moment.
   • Ryan and Rogan discuss the potential for technological advancements to extend lifespans, raising questions about the ethical implications of such interventions and the resources required to sustain an aging population.
3. The Nature of Consciousness: Rogan and Ryan discuss the possibility of remembering pre-birth experiences and the potential for our current understanding of consciousness to be incomplete. They explore the limitations of Darwinian evolution in explaining certain complex phenomena in nature and the challenges of discussing such topics in a scientifically rigorous way.
   • Rogan shares his personal experience of remembering a feeling of pre-birth existence, suggesting that our conscious awareness may extend beyond our current physical bodies.
   • They discuss the case of “face blindness” and how people with this condition compensate by creating mental records to remember faces, offering insight into the complexities of memory and perception.
   • Ryan acknowledges the challenges of discussing alternative theories to Darwinian evolution without being dismissed as a “religious lunatic” or a “woo woo person”.
   • He uses the example of Nazi science to illustrate how the rejection of certain ideas based on their association with controversial figures can stifle important scientific inquiry.
4. The Ethics of Eugenics: Rogan and Ryan tackle the controversial topic of eugenics, exploring the potential benefits and dangers of intervening in human reproduction. They discuss the potential for selective breeding to reduce genetic diseases but also acknowledge the ethical concerns associated with such practices.
   • Ryan argues against the idea that people with disabilities should be prevented from reproducing, emphasizing the value of individual experiences and the right to live a fulfilling life regardless of challenges.
   • They explore the counterargument that a fetus with a debilitating genetic condition may be spared suffering by not being born, but also acknowledge the potential for abuse and discrimination if such decisions are left to individuals or society.
   • Ryan expresses concern about the potential for coercion and the erosion of individual freedom if governments were to impose restrictions on reproduction based on genetic criteria.
   • Rogan and Ryan discuss the importance of education and responsible decision-making when it comes to reproduction but emphasize the right of individuals to choose how to live their lives.
5. The Biology and Behavior of Sea Slugs: Ryan and Rogan delve into the intriguing world of sea slugs, discussing their unique reproductive behavior, which involves a “battle” to determine who will be the male and who will be the female.
   • Ryan describes how sea slugs possess both male and female reproductive organs and how they engage in a physical contest to determine which individual will inject sperm into the other.
   • This unusual behavior highlights the diversity of life forms on Earth and the unexpected ways that evolution can lead to complex reproductive strategies.
   • They discuss the potential for discovering even more bizarre and fascinating life forms in unexplored regions of the planet, such as the oceans beneath the surface of Jupiter’s moon Europa.
   • Rogan and Ryan ponder the possibility of discovering alien life forms that might have evolved in ways that we cannot even imagine.
6. The Nature of Addiction: Rogan and Ryan explore the complexities of addiction, discussing the role of trauma, the limitations of current research models, and the importance of providing stimulating environments for individuals who are struggling with addiction.
   • They discuss Gabor Mate’s theory that addiction is a response to trauma, arguing that the substance or activity itself is not the root cause of the addiction but rather a symptom of underlying psychological pain.
   • Ryan and Rogan discuss the famous “Rat Park” experiment, which demonstrated that rats in stimulating environments were less likely to become addicted to cocaine than those in isolated cages, highlighting the importance of social and environmental factors in addiction.
   • They explore the idea that addiction is not necessarily a personal failing but rather a consequence of the complex interplay between individual biology, psychology, and social environment.
   • Rogan and Ryan acknowledge the need for compassion and understanding when addressing addiction, emphasizing the need to provide individuals with the resources and support they need to heal from trauma and find healthy coping mechanisms.
7. The Role of Obsession in Achievement: Rogan and Ryan discuss the importance of obsession in achieving greatness, exploring the potential link between obsessive-compulsive disorder and exceptional performance in fields like music, comedy, and sports.
   • They argue that while obsession can be seen as a pathology, it can also be a driving force for exceptional achievement, allowing individuals to dedicate themselves fully to a particular pursuit.
   • Rogan and Ryan discuss the case of Jimi Hendrix, whose musical genius and unconventional style were likely fueled by his use of hallucinogens and his unconventional approach to music-making.
   • They explore the idea that some of the most creative and influential individuals in history may have had underlying psychological issues that contributed to their greatness.
   • Rogan and Ryan discuss how the pressure of societal expectations and the need for approval can be powerful motivators for individuals seeking fame and recognition.
8. The Importance of Perspective: Rogan and Ryan discuss the importance of perspective in understanding human behavior and the complexities of the world around us. They explore the idea that our perception of reality is shaped by our own experiences and beliefs, and that what we consider “normal” or “abnormal” is often relative.
   • Rogan and Ryan discuss the challenges of reconciling the idealized views of patriotism and heroism with the harsh realities of war and violence.
   • They explore the idea that our understanding of history is often shaped by selective narratives and that our appreciation of the past is often influenced by our present-day perspectives.
   • They discuss the importance of empathy and the need to consider the perspectives of others, even when we disagree with them or find their beliefs and behaviors to be challenging.
   • Rogan and Ryan acknowledge the limitations of human understanding and the need to be open to new ideas and perspectives, especially as we continue to learn more about the world and ourselves.
9. The Role of Trauma in Creativity: Rogan and Ryan explore the potential link between trauma and creativity, discussing the idea that some of the most compelling works of art, music, and comedy may be a response to deep emotional pain.
   • They argue that individuals who have experienced significant trauma may have a heightened sensitivity to the world around them and a deeper understanding of human emotions, which can translate into powerful forms of artistic expression.
   • Rogan and Ryan discuss the lives and works of artists like Jimi Hendrix, John Belushi, and Phil Hartman, suggesting that their unique talents may have been fueled by their struggles with addiction, mental illness, and other forms of personal hardship.
   • They explore the idea that our cultural narratives often focus on the “pain” aspect of these individuals’ lives, overlooking the beauty and power of their creative contributions.
   • Rogan and Ryan argue that it is important to recognize the complexity of human experiences and to appreciate the ways in which even our darkest moments can contribute to something meaningful and beautiful.
10. The Importance of Connection: Rogan and Ryan discuss the importance of human connection, exploring the idea that our isolation and alienation from one another can contribute to a sense of dissatisfaction and unhappiness.
    • Ryan and Rogan discuss the social and psychological benefits of having strong community connections and how the breakdown of traditional communities can lead to a sense of loneliness and isolation.
    • They discuss the paradoxical nature of modern civilization, which has created unprecedented levels of comfort and security but has also contributed to a sense of fragmentation and disconnection from one another.
    • Rogan and Ryan suggest that our quest for security and comfort can sometimes come at the expense of authentic human connection and a sense of belonging.
    • They argue that finding meaning and purpose in life is often linked to our relationships with others and that fostering strong community connections is essential for our well-being.
11. The Acceleration of Change: Rogan and Ryan discuss the accelerating pace of technological advancements and the implications for human society. They explore how our access to information and our ability to communicate have changed dramatically in recent years, with far-reaching consequences for how we live, work, and interact with one another.
    • Rogan and Ryan discuss how the internet and mobile technology have transformed our experience of the world, making information readily available and allowing us to connect with people around the globe.
    • They acknowledge that these advancements have brought about many benefits, but they also raise concerns about the potential for information overload, social isolation, and the erosion of critical thinking skills.
    • They discuss how the pace of change is increasing exponentially, making it difficult to predict what the future holds for human society.
    • Rogan and Ryan argue that we must be aware of the challenges and opportunities presented by these advancements and work to ensure that they are used for the betterment of humanity.
12. The Evolutionary Process: Rogan and Ryan discuss the ongoing process of human evolution, suggesting that our species is still in a state of flux and that our understanding of ourselves is incomplete.
    • They argue that we should not view ourselves as the pinnacle of evolution but rather as a species in transition, with the potential for further development and change.
    • Rogan and Ryan discuss the potential for technological advancements to accelerate the process of human evolution, raising questions about the ethics of such interventions and the potential consequences for our species.
    • They explore the idea that our understanding of the universe and our place within it is constantly evolving and that we should be open to the possibility of new discoveries and insights.
    • Rogan and Ryan emphasize the importance of humility and a sense of wonder in our approach to the world and our place within it.

Memorable Quotes:

• “It’s like spraying body odor deodorant, so you’ll smell like a dirty hippie. You know?” – Rogan humorously describes the irony of people trying to adopt a hippie aesthetic while simultaneously rejecting its core values.
• “I don’t care about what I look like, man. Yeah. But you’re you’re buying $270 used clothes. I mean, like, you’re instead of wearing them and turning them into that, you are immediately trying to, like, adopt that persona.” – Rogan critiques the commodification of counterculture and the desire to project an image of authenticity through expensive fashion choices.
• “I think I we’re looking at what holds us back. as organisms. And what the things that if you look at our wars and our greed and this is all the crazy fucking larceny and crazy shit that people do, it’s all attached to the primate body. You know, it’s all attached to sex and breeding and greed and guilt and fear and to worry about being mortal.” – Ryan speculates on the potential for genetic engineering to overcome our primal instincts and create a more advanced form of human existence.
• “Don’t you think? I think that we’re gonna see a great advance in our lifetime of of lifespans. But the real issue is do we have the resources for that? because one of the things that is going on with our world, as everybody knows, is there’s a lot more people today than there’s ever been in recorded human history by a giant number.” – Rogan raises concerns about the potential environmental and economic consequences of extending human lifespans.
• “It’s it’s it’s somehow another taking this ability from its food. Do you know how sea slugs have sex? No. Oh, this is great since you mentioned slugs. I wasn’t planning to talk about slugs today, Joe, but since you brought it up, sea slugs are so interesting. They’re they’re on the bottom of the ocean, they’re just sort of wandering around blind. Right?” – Ryan introduces the topic of sea slug reproduction, demonstrating the unexpected diversity of life forms on Earth and his passion for exploring the natural world.