JRE #1294 – Jamie Metzl

9-May-19

Joe Rogan Podcast Topics – #1294 – Jamie Metzl

This podcast features a conversation with Jamie Metzl, a technology futurist and geopolitical expert. Metzl, author of the book “Hacking Darwin,” explores the implications of genetic engineering for the future of humanity, raising provocative questions about ethics, societal impact, and the role of government in regulating these rapidly advancing technologies.

Major Topics

Here are 15 major topics covered in the podcast:

1. Cacao Shamanism and the Power of Sacredness:
   • Metzl describes his self-proclaimed role as a “cacao shaman,” leading sacred cocoa ceremonies in New York.
   • He believes cacao can facilitate a sense of release, happiness, and joy, suggesting we have these qualities within us.
   • Metzl emphasizes the importance of infusing life with sacredness, regardless of the object or activity.
   • This topic contrasts with Metzl’s expertise in genetic manipulation, hinting at a broader philosophical approach to understanding life.
2. The Era of Genetically Modified Humans:
   • Metzl outlines the imminent arrival of genetically modified humans, drawing parallels to the controversial debate surrounding genetically modified foods.
   • He argues that public engagement and an inclusive conversation about the ethical and societal implications are crucial to avoid widespread unrest.
   • Metzl emphasizes that we are entering a radically different era compared to the past, where our ability to manipulate life is rapidly increasing.
   • This topic raises concerns about potential societal inequalities and the need for robust regulations to ensure equitable access to genetic technologies.
3. The Challenge of Regulation:
   • Metzl discusses the complexities of regulating revolutionary technologies like genetic engineering and AI, highlighting the need for both top-down government action and bottom-up public engagement.
   • He acknowledges the potential for abuse and exploitation by wealthy individuals and powerful entities, urging a proactive approach to ensure equitable access and prevent a dystopian scenario.
   • Metzl emphasizes the importance of a diverse range of voices, including those from religious and ethical perspectives, in shaping the future of genetic engineering.
   • This topic highlights the ongoing struggle between individual liberties and collective responsibility, particularly in a rapidly evolving technological landscape.
4. The US-China Rivalry in the Era of Biotech:
   • Metzl underscores the importance of the US-China rivalry in the context of genetic technologies, highlighting China’s ambitious national plan to lead the world in these fields by 2050.
   • He points to the birth of the world’s first genetically engineered babies in China as a significant development and a potential catalyst for a global arms race in genetic enhancement.
   • Metzl argues for a delicate balance between national ambition and global cooperation to ensure responsible and equitable development of these technologies.
   • This topic raises concerns about the potential for a “runaway arms race” in human enhancement, where nations compete to create “superhumans,” potentially leading to dangerous geopolitical instability.
5. The Future of Healthcare:
   • Metzl predicts a shift from generalized healthcare to personalized medicine, where genetic information and electronic health records will play a crucial role in tailoring treatments.
   • He forecasts a surge in genome sequencing, creating a massive data set that could enable predictive healthcare, potentially identifying disease risks and even predispositions to certain abilities.
   • This topic raises ethical questions about how to use this information responsibly, particularly regarding potential biases and the implications for individual freedoms.
   • Metzl’s vision suggests a future where healthcare is more preventative and personalized, but also raises concerns about potential social inequalities and the potential for genetic determinism.
6. The End of Sex as We Know It:
   • Metzl discusses the shift away from sexual reproduction as the primary means of conceiving children, envisioning a future where in vitro fertilization and embryo selection become the norm.
   • He anticipates a future where conceiving children through sex will be viewed as risky, similar to the current debate surrounding vaccination.
   • Metzl explores the potential for parents to select embryos based on desired traits, including intelligence, athletic ability, and even physical characteristics.
   • This topic raises a wide range of ethical concerns, including the potential for designer babies, the erosion of natural diversity, and the impact on our understanding of what it means to be human.
7. The Implications for Competitive Athletics:
   • Metzl discusses the potential impact of genetic enhancement on competitive athletics, raising questions about fairness and the definition of “natural” ability.
   • He highlights the emerging field of gene doping, where athletes might manipulate their genes to enhance performance, blurring the lines between natural talent and artificial enhancement.
   • Metzl envisions a future where genetic testing becomes commonplace in athletics, potentially leading to the creation of genetically optimized athletes, raising questions about what constitutes fair play.
   • This topic underscores the complexities of defining fairness in a world where genetic manipulation becomes increasingly commonplace, potentially challenging the very essence of competition.
8. The Rise of Brain-Machine Interfaces:
   • Metzl discusses the development of brain-machine interfaces, like Elon Musk’s Neuralink technology, which aims to connect our brains to machines.
   • He emphasizes the early stage of this technology, but acknowledges the potential for future breakthroughs that could allow us to upload and download memories, ideas, and even consciousness.
   • This topic raises profound ethical questions about the nature of identity, the potential for abuse, and the impact on our understanding of what it means to be human.
   • Metzl’s discussion highlights the blurring lines between human and machine, suggesting a future where our brains and bodies become increasingly intertwined with technology.
9. The Singularity and the Rise of Artificial Intelligence:
   • Metzl engages with the concept of the singularity, a hypothetical point in time when artificial intelligence surpasses human intelligence, potentially leading to a rapid acceleration of technological advancement.
   • He acknowledges the possibility of AI achieving self-awareness and becoming capable of learning at an exponential rate, potentially surpassing human capabilities.
   • Metzl, however, believes that AI will likely evolve as a distinct form of intelligence, not as a direct replacement for human consciousness.
   • This topic raises questions about the future of human-AI interaction, the potential for AI to become a powerful force in shaping our world, and the need to carefully consider the ethical implications of this rapidly evolving field.
10. The Importance of Values in a Technologically Driven Future:
    • Metzl stresses the importance of integrating our values into the development and deployment of these transformative technologies, emphasizing that technology itself is not inherently good or bad.
    • He argues that we must be vigilant in shaping the future of technology to align with our values, ensuring that it serves our needs rather than undermines them.
    • Metzl emphasizes the need for open and inclusive dialogue on these issues, involving a wide range of perspectives to ensure a responsible and equitable future for humanity.
    • This topic underscores the critical role of human values in guiding the development of powerful technologies, highlighting the importance of ethical considerations and the need for informed decision-making.
11. The Risks of Unintended Consequences:
    • Metzl cautions against the potential for unintended consequences, emphasizing the complexity of human biology and the possibility of unforeseen domino effects from manipulating our genes.
    • He draws parallels to the unintended consequences of social media algorithms, where the pursuit of profit can lead to societal harm.
    • Metzl urges a proactive approach to understanding potential risks and mitigating harm before these technologies become widespread.
    • This topic underscores the importance of caution, humility, and long-term thinking in the face of rapid technological advancement, emphasizing the need for rigorous scientific research, ethical guidelines, and robust regulations.
12. The Importance of Diversity:
    • Metzl highlights the importance of diversity not only in our social systems but also in our genetic makeup, arguing that diversity is essential for our survival and adaptability as a species.
    • He cautions against the potential for genetic homogeneity, arguing that it could leave us vulnerable to unforeseen environmental challenges or diseases.
    • Metzl emphasizes the need to embrace and celebrate our differences, recognizing the value of genetic diversity for the long-term health and resilience of humanity.
    • This topic underscores the crucial role of diversity in promoting adaptability and resilience, not only in our social structures but also in our genetic code.
13. The Role of Education and Public Engagement:
    • Metzl stresses the critical need for public education about genetic technologies, arguing that informed citizenry is essential for shaping the future of these technologies.
    • He encourages individuals to engage in the conversation, to share their views, and to hold their elected officials accountable for addressing these critical issues.
    • Metzl emphasizes the importance of understanding the science but also engaging with the ethical and societal implications of these technologies.
    • This topic highlights the power of individual action and the importance of collective engagement in shaping the future of these transformative technologies.
14. The Importance of a Global Perspective:
    • Metzl emphasizes the need for a global approach to regulating these technologies, recognizing that they have the potential to impact humanity as a whole.
    • He highlights the work of the World Health Organization’s International Advisory Committee on Human Genome Editing, which is attempting to develop global standards for regulating gene editing.
    • Metzl acknowledges the challenges of coordinating global efforts, but believes that we must strive for international cooperation to ensure responsible and ethical development of these technologies.
    • This topic underscores the interconnectedness of humanity in a rapidly changing world, emphasizing the need for global collaboration to address issues that transcend national borders.
15. The Potential for a Better Future:
    • Metzl expresses cautious optimism, believing that we have the potential to leverage these technologies for positive outcomes, such as improving human health, extending lifespans, and addressing global challenges.
    • He emphasizes the importance of informed dialogue, ethical considerations, and proactive regulation to navigate these challenges and create a better future for humanity.
    • Metzl encourages individuals to engage in the conversation, to become informed, and to advocate for a future that aligns with our values.
    • This topic provides a hopeful counterpoint to the potential risks, emphasizing the potential for these technologies to empower humanity and create a more equitable and sustainable world.
16. The Need for a Shift in Focus:
    • Metzl expresses concern about our current societal focus on trivial matters, like celebrity gossip and political dramas, while neglecting critical issues like the future of genetics and AI.
    • He argues that we must shift our attention to the big picture, acknowledging the profound implications of these technologies for our future and the need for informed and proactive engagement.
    • Metzl emphasizes that the future of humanity hinges on our ability to understand and shape these transformative technologies.
    • This topic highlights the need for a renewed focus on critical thinking, informed decision-making, and proactive engagement with the challenges and opportunities presented by these rapidly evolving technologies.

Memorable Quotes:

1. “We are messing with very complex systems that we don’t fully understand, and that’s why there’s a lot of unknowns. That’s why we I don’t think we want a total free-for-all. If you’ll say, hey, I’m gonna edit my own genes.” – Metzl highlights the potential dangers of unregulated genetic manipulation and the need for careful consideration of ethical boundaries.
2. “And so you have real options. Because then you get this this whole spreadsheet algorithm. And then you go to the parents say, well, what are your priorities?” – Metzl paints a picture of a future where parents could choose from a vast array of genetically modified embryos, raising questions about the potential for “designer babies” and the ethical implications of such choices.
3. “We are moving to a world of personalized medicine, and the foundation of your personalized health care will be your sequence genome and your electronic health records.” – Metzl forecasts a future where personalized healthcare becomes the norm, with genetic information playing a central role in diagnosing and treating diseases.
4. “I think we need to come to grips with the fact that we’re way stupider than we think we are. We we think we’re really intelligent and we are — Yeah. — in comparison to everything else on this planet. Yeah. But in comparison to what is possible, we are really fucking dumb.” – Metzl highlights the potential of AI to surpass human intelligence, prompting us to reassess our assumptions about our own capabilities.
5. “The future of technology, the future of all of this, it’s not human or AI. It’s human plus AI. And that is what’s going to drive we are coevolving with our technology, and that’s what’s going to drive us forward.” – Metzl envisions a future where humans and AI increasingly merge, suggesting a future of human-machine symbiosis and collaboration.