JRE #1520 – Dr. Debra Soh

This Joe Rogan podcast features Dr. Debra Soh, a former sex researcher, neuroscientist, and author of “The End of Gender.” It explores the contentious landscape of gender identity and the growing controversy surrounding gender transition in children. The podcast delves into provocative topics, scrutinizing the scientific evidence, societal narratives, and political influences surrounding sex and gender.

Dr. Soh, a self-described liberal, challenges what she views as a far-left agenda dominating discussions around gender, emphasizing the importance of factual dialogue. The podcast unravels the complexities of gender identity, exploring the differences between biological sex and gender identity, and the validity of the “non-binary” movement. Soh raises concerns about the societal pressure on young people to conform to specific gender identities, particularly in the context of rapid-onset gender dysphoria and the practice of transitioning children.

Underlying themes of the podcast include the dangers of ideological blinders, the importance of scientific rigor, the ethical dilemmas of medical interventions for children, and the need for nuanced conversations surrounding sex and gender.

Podcast Topics

1. Early Transitioning in Children:

• Dr. Soh argues that most children who identify as transgender will grow up to be gay, not transgender.
• She highlights concerns about the lack of scientific evidence supporting early transitioning.
• The podcast explores potential risks, including irreversible physical changes and the possibility of regret in adulthood.
• Dr. Soh emphasizes the need for ethical and comprehensive assessments before transitioning children.

2. Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria:

• The podcast discusses the alarming rise in teenage girls identifying as transgender.
• Dr. Soh attributes this trend to social influences, highlighting clusters of friends who simultaneously transition.
• She raises concerns about the social pressure and lack of critical analysis in these cases.
• The podcast examines the potential impact of social media and the “woke” culture on these young people.

3. Scientific Censorship and Academia:

• Dr. Soh describes the increasing pressure on academics to adhere to certain narratives, particularly in the field of sex research.
• She recounts her own experience facing backlash for challenging prevailing views on transitioning children.
• The podcast explores the chilling effect of silencing dissenting voices in academic institutions.
• Dr. Soh underscores the importance of protecting academic freedom and fostering open dialogue in scientific inquiry.

4. Gender as a Spectrum vs. Two Distinct Sexes:

• Dr. Soh argues that biological sex is determined by gametes (eggs or sperm), resulting in two distinct sexes: male and female.
• She challenges the concept of a gender spectrum, emphasizing the binary nature of biological sex.
• Dr. Soh advocates for equal rights for intersex and transgender individuals without redefining sex or gender.
• The podcast explores the implications of blurring the lines between biological sex and gender identity.

5. The Non-Binary Movement:

• Dr. Soh explores the motives behind the growing popularity of the non-binary identity.
• She suggests that for some individuals, it may be a way to signal their politics or address discomfort with societal gender stereotypes.
• Dr. Soh encourages individuals who feel different to embrace their biological sex and challenge societal expectations, rather than abandoning their gender identity.
• The podcast examines the potential downsides of embracing a “spectrum” approach to gender, particularly when it comes to medical interventions.

6. Medical Interventions for Gender Transition:

• Dr. Soh expresses concerns about the increasing prevalence of double mastectomies in young women identifying as non-binary.
• She advocates for thorough assessments and counseling before irreversible medical procedures.
• The podcast highlights the risks of transitioning at a young age, particularly the possibility of regret later in life.
• Dr. Soh emphasizes the need for honest conversations about the potential downsides of transitioning, even if it involves addressing difficult or controversial topics.

7. The Role of Activism and Wokeness:

• Dr. Soh criticizes the “woke” culture that often shuts down nuanced discussions about gender.
• She argues that questioning the narrative is automatically labeled as hateful or bigoted, hindering open dialogue.
• Dr. Soh advocates for a more tolerant and inclusive society where respectful discourse can flourish.
• The podcast explores the dangers of silencing dissent and the importance of critical thinking in a pluralistic society.

8. The Politics of Gender Identity:

• Dr. Soh explores the partisan divide surrounding gender identity, noting the reluctance of even liberal journalists to discuss controversial topics.
• She emphasizes that the well-being of children should not be a political issue.
• The podcast discusses the influence of ideological pressure on individuals and institutions.
• Dr. Soh highlights the need to prioritize the needs of children over political agendas.

9. The Impact of Homophobia on Gender Identity:

• Dr. Soh suggests that homophobia may play a role in the acceptance of transitioning children, particularly in cases where parents fear their son may be gay.
• She argues that societies should embrace and support individuals who identify as gay, without resorting to transitioning as a solution.
• The podcast underscores the importance of understanding the underlying motivations driving the transition movement.
• Dr. Soh advocates for a more accepting and inclusive society that celebrates diversity in sexual orientation and gender identity.

10. The Concept of “Conversion Therapy” for Gender Identity:

• Dr. Soh challenges the use of the term “conversion therapy” in the context of gender identity, arguing that it conflates it with efforts to change sexual orientation.
• She asserts that exploring alternative explanations for gender dysphoria in children is not harmful or abusive.
• The podcast highlights the dangers of silencing clinicians who seek to understand the complexities of children’s mental health.
• Dr. Soh emphasizes the need for a more nuanced and compassionate approach to dealing with gender dysphoria in children.

11. The Significance of Sex Differences:

• Dr. Soh discusses the biological basis for sex differences, including the impact of prenatal testosterone exposure.
• She challenges the notion that all individuals should conform to the same behavioral norms, regardless of their biological sex.
• The podcast explores the significance of acknowledging sex differences without resorting to sexist stereotypes.
• Dr. Soh emphasizes the importance of embracing individual differences, even when it comes to sex and gender.

12. Autogynephilia and the Complexity of Transgender Identities:

• Dr. Soh discusses the controversial phenomenon of autogynephilia, a paraphilia where individuals are sexually aroused by the idea of being a woman.
• She explains the potential role of autogynephilia in driving some individuals’ desire to transition.
• The podcast explores the ethical complexities of acknowledging this phenomenon and its implications for transgender individuals.
• Dr. Soh encourages further research and open dialogue about the spectrum of transgender experiences.

13. The Impact of Societal Acceptance on Transgender Individuals:

• Dr. Soh acknowledges the importance of societal acceptance for transgender individuals.
• She explores the potential link between societal acceptance and lower suicide rates.
• The podcast discusses the ethical dilemma of balancing societal support with the need for critical analysis.
• Dr. Soh emphasizes the importance of creating a more inclusive and understanding society for transgender individuals.

14. Pornography and Sexual Health:

• Dr. Soh offers a nuanced perspective on pornography, suggesting that it can be a harmless form of entertainment for adults.
• She expresses concerns about the potential impact of pornography on children and the importance of age-appropriate sexual education.
• The podcast explores the complexities of pornography consumption and the dangers of overconsumption and addiction.
• Dr. Soh advocates for a more open and honest dialogue about sex and sexuality in modern society.

15. The Future of Gender Identity and Society:

• Dr. Soh predicts a wave of detransitioning children and adults, challenging the current narrative on gender identity.
• She expresses hope that open dialogue and scientific inquiry will lead to greater understanding and acceptance.
• The podcast explores the potential for technological advancements, such as CRISPR, to reshape our understanding of sex and gender.
• Dr. Soh encourages a future where individuals are free to explore their identities without fear of judgment or censorship.

Memorable Quotes

• “The fact that Science denial and misinformation about gender is so prominent now is actually affecting is really poorly affecting our ability to understand gender, and that’s leading to the demise of our understanding of it in an accurate way.” – Dr. Soh highlights the dangers of misinforming the public about gender identity.
• “Nowadays, tenure is not going to protect you.” – Dr. Soh describes the precarious situation of academics who dare to challenge prevailing narratives.
• “It is. It is. I think I find people who are, you know, at the middle of the road. They’re not sure what to think. if they read my work or they talk to me, they say, oh, wow. I never I never realized that I didn’t know the science said that, and they changed their perspective.” – Dr. Soh shares her experience of reaching those willing to challenge their own biases and embrace new information.
• “I think it’s just a question of how much do you pay attention to it?” – Dr. Soh acknowledges that the impact of cultural narratives varies depending on individual engagement.
• “I just ask that your audience actually read the book before making a decision about where I stand on these issues because I think a lot of the time people, especially actors or people who are really in invested in this the way things are going in our culture, they will go to any lengths to push that agenda.” – Dr. Soh emphasizes the importance of critical analysis and encourages her readers to engage with her work directly.