JRE #1536 – Edward Snowden

15-Sep-20

Podcast Topics

This Joe Rogan podcast features Edward Snowden, a former CIA contractor turned whistleblower, who is now a noted privacy advocate and author. The conversation explores the complex world of government surveillance, privacy rights, and the dangers of unchecked power. Topics range from Snowden’s personal experiences to the legal and ethical implications of mass surveillance programs. Provocative discussions include the Patriot Act, the NSO Group’s Pegasus malware, the dangers of planting evidence, the concept of end-to-end encryption, and the implications of deplatforming on social media. The overarching theme revolves around the importance of protecting individual freedom and privacy in the digital age.

Major Topics

1. Snowden’s Recent Court Victory: The Ninth District Court of Appeals ruled that the NSA’s bulk collection of Americans’ phone records was illegal, marking a significant victory for privacy rights. This decision further fuels calls for Snowden’s pardon.
   1. The court’s ruling overturned a previous decision by a single judge, demonstrating a broader consensus against the NSA program.
   2. The ruling focused on the legality of Section 215 of the Patriot Act, highlighting the FBI’s overreach in surveillance.
   3. This victory provides a precedent for challenging other mass surveillance programs, raising hope for stronger privacy protections.
   4. Despite the ruling, the government may attempt to circumvent it through legal maneuvers, underscoring the need for continuous vigilance.
2. The Dangers of Warrantless Wiretapping: Snowden highlights the vulnerability of individuals to government surveillance and the potential for abuse. The Patriot Act’s broad interpretation of “relevance” allows for the collection of vast amounts of data, raising concerns about privacy and due process.
   1. The Patriot Act, enacted after 9/11, significantly expanded government surveillance powers under the guise of national security.
   2. Snowden argues that the Patriot Act’s broad interpretation of “relevance” allows for the collection of data unrelated to specific crimes, undermining individual privacy.
   3. The ease with which evidence can be planted and used to obtain warrants raises serious concerns about due process and the potential for abuse.
   4. Snowden emphasizes the need for a clear definition of “relevance” and limitations on warrantless wiretapping to safeguard individual rights.
3. End-to-End Encryption: Snowden discusses the importance of end-to-end encryption in protecting privacy and the government’s attempts to undermine it. He argues that companies like Google and Facebook have a responsibility to protect user data, even from government requests.
   1. End-to-end encryption prevents third parties, including companies and governments, from accessing encrypted communications.
   2. Snowden criticizes the government’s efforts to weaken end-to-end encryption, arguing that it will increase vulnerability to surveillance and abuse.
   3. He emphasizes the need for companies to prioritize user privacy and resist government pressures to compromise encryption.
   4. The debate over encryption highlights the tension between national security and individual privacy in the digital age.
4. The NSO Group and Pegasus Malware: Snowden dives into the controversial NSO Group, a company that sells sophisticated spyware to governments, enabling them to hack into phones and access private data. This raises concerns about the potential for abuse by authoritarian regimes.
   1. The NSO Group’s Pegasus malware is specifically designed to exploit vulnerabilities in iPhones, targeting high-profile individuals and dissidents.
   2. The Citizen Lab, a Canadian research group, plays a crucial role in tracking the NSO Group’s activities and exposing its targets.
   3. Snowden highlights the use of Pegasus by authoritarian regimes to suppress dissent and monitor political opponents, raising serious concerns about human rights.
   4. The NSO Group case illustrates the growing market for powerful surveillance tools and the need for stricter regulations to prevent abuse.
5. The Culture of Impunity in Government Surveillance: Snowden underscores the lack of accountability for government officials who engage in illegal surveillance activities. He argues that this culture of impunity encourages continued abuses and makes it difficult to reform the system.
   1. Despite court rulings against government surveillance programs, there have been no significant repercussions for the officials responsible.
   2. The lack of accountability creates a culture where officials feel emboldened to continue their practices, even when they are illegal.
   3. Snowden argues that true reform requires establishing criminal liability for officials who violate the law, deterring future abuses.
   4. He highlights the need for a more transparent and accountable system to ensure that government surveillance is conducted lawfully and ethically.
6. The Ineffectiveness of Mass Surveillance Programs: Snowden challenges the government’s claims that mass surveillance programs are essential for national security. He argues that the programs have proven to be ineffective at preventing terrorism and have had a negligible impact on public safety.
   1. The government has repeatedly claimed that mass surveillance programs have prevented terrorist attacks, but Snowden argues that these claims are unsubstantiated.
   2. He cites instances where the government has overstated the effectiveness of these programs, raising questions about their legitimacy.
   3. Snowden contends that traditional investigative methods are often more effective than mass surveillance, emphasizing the need for a more targeted approach.
   4. The lack of evidence to support the effectiveness of mass surveillance programs raises questions about the true motivations behind their implementation.
7. The Importance of Whistleblower Protection: Snowden discusses the importance of protecting whistleblowers, who often expose illegal or unethical activities within government and corporations. He argues that whistleblowers play a vital role in holding power accountable, but face significant risks and legal challenges.
   1. Snowden highlights the importance of whistleblower protection, arguing that it is essential for a functioning democracy.
   2. He criticizes the use of the Espionage Act to prosecute whistleblowers, arguing that it undermines the public interest and chills free speech.
   3. Snowden calls for a pardon for himself and other whistleblowers who have been unfairly prosecuted, arguing that they deserve recognition for their courage.
   4. He underscores the need for a system that encourages whistleblowers to come forward without fear of retaliation, ensuring accountability and transparency.
8. The Julian Assange Case: Snowden discusses the case of Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, who is facing extradition to the United States. He argues that Assange’s prosecution under the Espionage Act sets a dangerous precedent for press freedom and free speech.
   1. The US government’s pursuit of Assange for publishing classified information, including war logs and diplomatic cables, raises concerns about press freedom and the right to publish.
   2. Snowden argues that Assange’s prosecution would criminalize journalism and create a chilling effect on the media’s ability to hold power accountable.
   3. He emphasizes that Assange’s case highlights the government’s willingness to target those who expose wrongdoing, even if they are acting in the public interest.
   4. The Assange case underscores the need for a strong legal framework that protects the right to publish and hold power accountable.
9. The Dangers of Deplatforming on Social Media: Snowden explores the growing trend of deplatforming on social media, where individuals or groups are removed from platforms for expressing controversial or unpopular views. He argues that deplatforming is a slippery slope that undermines free speech and creates a culture of censorship.
   1. Snowden argues that deplatforming, while seemingly targeting extreme views, can quickly escalate into censorship of dissenting opinions.
   2. He criticizes the power of social media companies to decide what can and cannot be said on their platforms, highlighting the need for stricter regulations.
   3. Snowden emphasizes that the answer to harmful speech should be counter-speech and robust debate, not censorship.
   4. He raises concerns about the potential for deplatforming to be used by authoritarian regimes to suppress dissent and control information.
10. The Need for a More Civil Public Discourse: Snowden discusses the importance of civility in public discourse and the dangers of tribalism and partisan anger. He argues that the polarization of society is hindering progress and making it difficult to address complex issues.
    1. Snowden acknowledges the importance of civility in public discourse, arguing that it is essential for productive dialogue and finding common ground.
    2. He criticizes the increasing polarization of society, where individuals are quick to demonize those who hold different views.
    3. Snowden emphasizes the need for empathy and understanding, encouraging individuals to engage with diverse perspectives and challenge their own biases.
    4. He argues that a more civil public discourse is essential for addressing complex challenges and building a more just and equitable society.
11. The Internet as a Public Utility: Snowden argues that social media platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube have become essential public utilities, raising questions about their power and responsibility. He suggests that their size and influence warrant greater regulation and oversight to protect free speech and prevent censorship.
    1. Snowden contends that social media platforms have become essential tools for communication and information dissemination, akin to utilities like electricity and water.
    2. He raises concerns about the power of these companies to control access to information and censor dissenting voices, highlighting the need for a more equitable and transparent system.
    3. Snowden suggests that the 1st Amendment protections should extend to social media platforms, ensuring the right to free speech and expression.
    4. He emphasizes the need for a public dialogue about the role of these platforms in society and how to ensure their responsible use.
12. The Role of Poverty and Inequality: Snowden connects the issues of privacy, surveillance, and police brutality to the broader societal challenges of poverty and inequality. He argues that addressing these root causes is essential for creating a more just and equitable society.
    1. Snowden emphasizes that poverty and inequality create fertile ground for crime, desperation, and social unrest, contributing to the problems of surveillance and police brutality.
    2. He argues that addressing these systemic issues through investments in education, healthcare, and economic opportunities is crucial for preventing crime and promoting social justice.
    3. Snowden calls for a more compassionate and equitable approach to addressing societal challenges, focusing on the root causes rather than simply managing the symptoms.
    4. He emphasizes the need for a more inclusive and empathetic society that recognizes the interconnectedness of social issues and works to create a better future for all.
13. The Need for Moral Growth and Evolution: Snowden concludes the podcast with a call for moral growth and evolution, emphasizing the importance of learning from our mistakes, embracing new perspectives, and striving to become better versions of ourselves. He believes that human progress is possible but requires a commitment to continuous improvement.
    1. Snowden acknowledges the flaws and imperfections inherent in human nature but emphasizes our potential for growth and evolution.
    2. He encourages individuals to challenge their own biases, embrace new perspectives, and seek to understand different viewpoints.
    3. Snowden argues that the digital age offers unique opportunities for connection and learning, but also poses challenges that require a conscious effort to promote civility and understanding.
    4. He believes that by embracing our capacity for growth and working to create a more just and equitable society, we can build a better future for all.

5 Memorable Quotes

1. “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
2. “I set that on fire, because I believe that what I saw was wrong, and I believe that people deserve to know about it.”
3. “It wasn’t about safety. It was about power. They told us it was about safety. That was again, it’s the Save the Puppies Act.”
4. “The worst thing that we say at any moment today, they are permanent. The Internet never forgets.”
5. “We’ve created a procedural state, a bureaucratic state. And automated system for policing. And, I mean, they’re broadly don’t just mean, you know, guys in in in in in shiny on the ground with a pistol on their waist. I’m talking about, is it platform behavior and speech on Twitter? I’m talking about it. Is it surveillance behavior? with domestically against American citizens and abroad around the world. We are trying to create a system that absorbs everyone and judges everyone in a way that we already know is not fair.”