JRE #1539 – Jenny Kleeman

22-Sep-20

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This podcast explores the fascinating and sometimes unsettling ideas presented in Jenny Kleeman’s book, “Sex Robots & Vegan Meat: Adventures at the Frontier of Birth, Food, Sex & Death,” diving into the ethical and philosophical implications of rapidly advancing technologies. Provocative topics include the potential for artificial intelligence to surpass human capabilities, the rise of sex robots and their impact on relationships, the ethical considerations of lab-grown meat, and the evolving nature of human identity in a technologically driven future. Underlying themes delve into the complex relationship between human nature and technology, the potential for technological solutions to create new problems, and the ever-present tension between progress and potential consequences.

Sex Robots: The Ethical Implications of Artificial Companionship

The conversation kicks off with the intriguing topic of sex robots, exploring the potential future where artificial humans, devoid of empathy but programmed for perfection, might become commonplace companions. Kleeman highlights the ethical concerns surrounding this technology, particularly the gender bias in their design and the potential for these relationships to erode empathy and human connection. She emphasizes the importance of empathy in relationships and raises concerns about a future where such relationships become normalized, potentially leading to a society where empathy is no longer a requirement.

• The Potential for Dehumanization: Kleeman expresses concern that sex robots could contribute to the dehumanization of relationships, leading to a society where empathy and genuine human connection are less valued. She envisions a scenario where individuals might prefer the predictability and control offered by artificial partners, sacrificing the complexities and challenges inherent in human relationships.
• The Gender Bias and Power Dynamics: Kleeman points out the vast majority of sex robots currently being developed are designed in the female form, raising concerns about the perpetuation of gender stereotypes and the potential for these technologies to reinforce existing power dynamics.
• The Impact on Social Connection: She argues that the allure of a perfect partner could lead to further isolation and a decrease in genuine human interaction. People might become increasingly reliant on these artificial companions, neglecting the importance of real-world relationships.
• The Role of Empathy and Human Growth: Kleeman emphasizes that challenging and imperfect relationships are essential for personal growth and understanding. The absence of empathy in relationships with artificial companions could lead to a decline in emotional intelligence and the capacity for genuine connection.

The Future of Humanity: Transcendence or Obsolescence?

The conversation delves into the potential for humans to transcend their biological limitations through technological advancements like Neuralink, which aims to radically increase the bandwidth between human brains and information. Kleeman expresses concerns about the potential for such technology to redefine what it means to be human, potentially leading to a future where biological humans become obsolete. Rogan, while acknowledging the potential for such a future, expresses a more optimistic view, arguing that humans are adaptable and capable of resisting the allure of technological enhancements. He posits that the “have-nots” who don’t have access to this technology might ultimately forge ahead in a different, possibly better, way.

• The Rise of Transhumanism: The conversation explores the concept of transhumanism, the belief that humans can and should transcend their biological limitations through technology. Kleeman expresses concern about the potential for this ideology to lead to a devaluation of human nature and the acceptance of an artificial, enhanced version of humanity.
• The Potential for Inequality: Kleeman highlights the potential for technological advancements to exacerbate existing social inequalities. Those with access to these enhancements could gain significant advantages, creating a wider gap between the haves and have-nots. This could lead to a dystopian future where access to technology determines social status and opportunity.
• The Human Capacity for Adaptation: Rogan offers a more optimistic perspective, arguing that humans are adaptable and capable of resisting the allure of technological enhancements. He believes that individuals might choose to embrace their biological limitations and imperfections, finding fulfillment in a less technologically driven existence.
• The Importance of Choice: Both Rogan and Kleeman agree that the future of humanity is not predetermined. They emphasize the importance of human agency and the power of individuals to choose how they engage with technology. The choice to embrace or resist technological enhancements will ultimately shape the course of human evolution.

Genetic Engineering: A Powerful Tool with Potentially Dire Consequences

The podcast moves on to explore the implications of genetic engineering, specifically focusing on CRISPR technology and its potential to reshape the human species. Kleeman voices concerns about the power of this technology to create a future where everyone looks like a genetically engineered super-being, potentially leading to social stratification and the marginalization of those who choose not to participate in this “enhanced” world. She emphasizes the need for open and critical discussion about the ethical implications of genetic engineering before this technology becomes widely available.

• The Ethical Implications of Human Enhancement: Kleeman raises ethical concerns about the potential for genetic engineering to create a world where physical and cognitive abilities are determined by genetic manipulation, potentially leading to a new form of social hierarchy based on “designer genes.”
• The Risk of Unintended Consequences: She highlights the inherent risks associated with genetic engineering, emphasizing the potential for unforeseen consequences and the lack of control over how this technology might be used in the future.
• The Need for Responsible Regulation: Kleeman argues for the importance of establishing ethical guidelines and regulatory frameworks for the use of genetic engineering, ensuring that this powerful technology is used responsibly and not abused for personal gain or social control.
• The Potential for Misuse: Kleeman points out the potential for genetic engineering to be misused by rogue states or private companies, leading to the creation of a stratified society where access to genetic enhancements determines social status and opportunity.

Lab-Grown Meat: A Technological Solution to Animal Agriculture or a Pandora’s Box?

The conversation then shifts to the intriguing topic of lab-grown meat, exploring the potential for this technology to revolutionize the meat industry and address ethical concerns about animal agriculture. Kleeman expresses mixed feelings about this technology, acknowledging its potential benefits but also raising concerns about its potential for unintended consequences and the potential for its misuse by large corporations.

• A Potential Solution to Ethical and Environmental Concerns: Kleeman acknowledges the potential for lab-grown meat to reduce animal suffering, decrease carbon emissions, and conserve resources. She highlights the ethical concerns surrounding animal agriculture, particularly the inhumane conditions of factory farming, and argues that lab-grown meat could offer a more humane alternative.
• The Potential for Unintended Consequences: She also voices concerns about the potential for unintended consequences, particularly the health implications of highly processed meat substitutes and the possibility of unforeseen environmental impacts.
• The Role of Corporate Influence: Kleeman expresses concerns about the potential for large corporations to dominate the lab-grown meat industry, potentially prioritizing profit over ethical considerations. She fears that this technology could be exploited to further concentrate power in the hands of a few large corporations.
• The Importance of Individual Choice: Kleeman emphasizes that individual consumers have the power to influence the future of food production. She encourages people to make informed choices about their food consumption, prioritizing sustainable and ethical options whenever possible.

The Right to Die: A Messy and Complex Issue with No Easy Answers

The conversation concludes with a thoughtful discussion about death, exploring the ethical complexities of the right to die and the desire to control the end of life. Kleeman challenges the idea of a perfect death, noting the limitations of current methods and the potential risks associated with seeking illegal or unregulated ways to end one’s life. She emphasizes the importance of safeguards and human involvement in end-of-life decisions, arguing against the notion that individuals should have complete control over their death without any external oversight.

• The Ethical Dilemma of Assisted Dying: Kleeman explores the complexities of the right to die, acknowledging the desire for control over one’s end of life but also highlighting the potential for abuse and the importance of safeguards to protect vulnerable individuals.
• The Fear of Death and Loss of Control: She examines the fear of death and the desire for control over the end of life, particularly among those who fear losing their independence and dignity in their final years. She suggests that the desire for a perfect death is often driven by fear rather than a rational assessment of the end of life.
• The Importance of Human Gatekeepers: Kleeman argues for the importance of human gatekeepers in end-of-life decisions, particularly in cases of depression and mental illness. She believes that the complexities of human emotions and the potential for temporary states of distress make it necessary to have external guidance and support when making such a significant decision.
• The Evolving Nature of Death: Kleeman concludes by acknowledging the evolving nature of death and the ongoing debates surrounding the right to die. She recognizes the need for ongoing discussion and reevaluation of ethical and legal frameworks surrounding this complex issue.

5 Memorable Quotes:

• “What happens in a future where it’s possible to have a relationship where only one half of the partnership matters, where you don’t have to have empathy for your other half? You don’t have to care about what their ambitions are, what their desires are. They’ll always laugh at your jokes. They never get in a bad mood. You know, they have to meet their family. And what is that gonna do to us as human beings when we don’t we when empathy is no longer a requirement of the relationship?”
• “We have this idea comes from science fiction of, like, ex machina or press from Blade Runner of these, like, totally perfect beings who are really dangerous. And That doesn’t exist at the moment, but it is going to exist. It is going to exist at some point. There will be something extremely realistic that gives a very good illusion of being human even though it’s not. And there are lots of reasons to be concerned about this.”
• “I’m really worried about this. I’m not I’m not worried in a sense, but I I see the writing on the wall. And I I see people as having a a a short lifespan in terms of like this this version of human being that we’re enjoying right now. I don’t think this is gonna last.”
• “I love human beings. I love I love all our weirdness. I love our flaws. I love the conflict and the resolution of that conflict. I think we’re amazing. I think it’s a I I love talking to people.”
• “You know, I talked to Elon Musk and he was telling me about Neuralink. And Neuralink is going to radically increase the bandwidth between human beings and information. When used start stuffing wires into people’s brains, and you make some sort of weird Bluetooth connection to an app or some other piece of technology that allows you to interface with it and and and have access to information at a much more rapid pace. That seems the beginning of the end of what we call the biological human.”

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