JRE #1640 – Josh Rogin

This podcast features journalist and political analyst Josh Rogin, author of “Chaos Under Heaven: Trump, Xi, and the Battle for the 21st Century.” It delves into his career, his views on the US-China relationship, the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic, and the controversial lab leak theory. Rogin also discusses his experiences with a comedian who punched him in the face and attempted to bribe him, providing an entertaining and provocative anecdote. The podcast highlights the complexities of global politics, the danger of unchecked scientific research, the influence of the Chinese Communist Party, and the importance of critical thinking and open dialogue.

Topics:

1. Josh Rogin’s Unique Career Path:
   • From teaching English in Japan to working at the Asahi Shinbun’s Washington bureau, Rogin’s career took an unconventional route.
   • He became the Pentagon reporter, despite having no prior experience, showcasing his hustle and adaptability.
   • He honed his skills under top Japanese journalists, learning valuable techniques for sourcing, digging, and analyzing information.
   • He eventually transitioned to American media, breaking stories and gaining recognition for his investigative journalism.
2. The Origins of the COVID-19 Pandemic:
   • Rogin delves into the controversy surrounding the lab leak hypothesis, arguing for the need for a thorough investigation.
   • He details how the story became politicized, with Trump and Pompeo prematurely pushing the lab theory, while scientists vehemently denied it.
   • He exposes the influence of gain-of-function research, funded by US taxpayers, which aims to predict and preempt pandemics but may have accidentally sparked one.
   • He criticizes the WHO’s biased investigation, led by scientists who had a conflict of interest and downplayed the lab leak theory.
3. Anthony Fauci’s Role in Gain-of-Function Research:
   • Rogin raises controversial questions about Anthony Fauci’s leadership in gain-of-function research, suggesting a lack of focus on developing treatments.
   • He reveals that Fauci resumed this research, which was previously banned by the Obama administration, without proper White House consultation.
   • He questions the efficacy of the research, pointing out its failure to predict the pandemic, and suggests that funding could have been better allocated to monitoring and surveillance.
   • He exposes the lack of scientific debate on gain-of-function research due to Fauci’s control over funding and the potential for career repercussions.
4. The Chinese Communist Party’s Influence:
   • Rogin discusses the CCP’s long-term strategy to influence American institutions, including academia, Wall Street, Silicon Valley, sports, and Hollywood.
   • He details how the CCP utilizes proxies, such as billionaires and organizations, to funnel millions of dollars into American institutions, impacting research and discourse.
   • He exposes the CCP’s use of Confucius Institutes, which are meant to promote language and culture but have been used to plant spies and suppress dissent.
   • He highlights the CCP’s aggressive response to any criticism, punishing companies and individuals that challenge their policies, as seen in the NBA and H&M incidents.
5. The CCP’s Role in the COVID-19 Pandemic:
   • Rogin exposes the CCP’s cover-up of the pandemic’s origins, including silencing scientists and journalists.
   • He debunks the frozen food theory, calling it a “fool’s errand” and a way to distract from the lab leak theory.
   • He argues that the CCP’s actions have had a direct effect on global public health, hindering efforts to prevent future pandemics.
   • He criticizes the CCP’s use of vaccine diplomacy to blackmail and bribe countries, demonstrating their strategic approach to geopolitical influence.
6. The Impact on American Institutions:
   • Rogin explores the CCP’s influence on American universities, including the use of funding to buy influence and silence criticism.
   • He highlights the CCP’s control over Chinese students in the US, limiting their free speech and making them vulnerable to repercussions.
   • He argues that the CCP’s influence extends to the FBI, creating a complex situation for universities seeking independence but needing support in dealing with potential threats.
   • He discusses the need for open dialogue and debate on these issues, warning of the dangers of echo chambers and the suppression of opposing viewpoints.
7. The CCP’s Atrocities against the Uighur Muslims:
   • Rogin details the CCP’s systematic suppression of the Uighur Muslims, including mass surveillance, persecution, and the creation of concentration camps.
   • He provides harrowing accounts from survivors, showcasing the physical and psychological abuse they endured in the camps and the ongoing struggle to rebuild their lives.
   • He criticizes the CCP’s genocide denialism, pointing out the overwhelming evidence and the real-life consequences of their actions.
   • He raises questions about the complicity of American businesses and consumers in these atrocities, through investments in companies that profit from the CCP’s oppressive practices.
8. The Role of Wall Street in Funding Malign Chinese Companies:
   • Rogin exposes the significant investment by Wall Street firms in Chinese companies, including those that build concentration camps, manufacture surveillance technology, and produce weapons.
   • He argues that this financial involvement creates a conflict of interest for the US government, making it difficult to impose sanctions on these companies.
   • He questions the moral implications of American pensions being invested in these companies, highlighting the unwitting complicity of ordinary Americans.
   • He argues for a more nuanced approach to dealing with China, including limits on investment in companies that directly benefit from the CCP’s repressive practices.
9. The Importance of a Nuanced Conversation:
   • Rogin emphasizes the need for a nuanced discussion on China, acknowledging the complexity of the issues and the need to move beyond simplistic narratives.
   • He encourages listeners to challenge their own assumptions, recognizing that confirmation bias and source bias can distort our understanding.
   • He advocates for constructive disagreement and the willingness to admit when we might be wrong, essential for learning and finding solutions.
   • He warns against the dangers of ideological camps and echo chambers, which stifle critical thinking and impede our ability to address complex issues.
10. The Future of the US-China Relationship:
    • Rogin highlights the challenges of dealing with a rising China, recognizing the CCP’s increasing influence and its expansionist ambitions.
    • He argues that the competition with China is not primarily military, but economic, ideological, and technological.
    • He suggests that the real action is in the markets, requiring a more sophisticated understanding of how Wall Street’s investments impact US-China relations.
    • He emphasizes the importance of a proactive and aggressive counterstrategy, based on American values and a commitment to human rights, to protect against the CCP’s influence.
11. The Importance of Engagement:
    • Rogin stresses the need for continued engagement with the Chinese people, acknowledging their shared humanity and desire for freedom and dignity.
    • He highlights the importance of preserving the space for open dialogue, even in the face of the CCP’s attempts to suppress dissent.
    • He emphasizes that the fight against the CCP is not just about US-China relations, but about protecting the values of liberty and democracy globally.
    • He concludes with a message of hope, emphasizing the enduring power of the human spirit and the potential for progress in the face of adversity.

Memorable Quotes:

• “The true story of that incident has never been told.” – This statement, referring to the altercation with comedian Dan Nainan, sets the stage for a revealing and humorous anecdote about a shocking encounter.
• “We have to investigate the lab accident theory. In other words, not that we know it came from the lab, but that there’s enough circumstantial evidence that we can’t rule it out.” – This quote encapsulates Rogin’s central argument regarding the need for a thorough investigation into the origins of the pandemic, regardless of political biases.
• “The origin of the coronavirus is not a political question. It’s not an ideological question. In fact, it’s not even really a scientific question. It’s a forensic question.” – Rogin emphasizes the importance of treating the pandemic’s origins as a serious matter of investigation, not as a political tool for scoring points or fueling partisan divides.
• “The godfather of that industry, the head of the pyramid, is a guy you may have heard of called Anthony Fauci.” – This statement sets the stage for a critical examination of Fauci’s role in gain-of-function research, raising questions about potential conflicts of interest and the efficacy of his approach.
• “It’s not about regime change. It’s not about a cold war. These are sort of like bumper stickers that people throw out to dissuade people from having an honest conversation about a deal with a Chinese Communist Party that is becoming increasingly problematic in ways that affect our lives.” – Rogin challenges simplistic narratives about China, advocating for a nuanced and realistic approach to dealing with the CCP’s growing influence.