JRE #1774 – Josh Dubin

9-Feb-22

This podcast delves deep into the world of criminal justice reform with Josh Dubin, a passionate civil rights attorney, who advocates for the wrongfully incarcerated. Provocative topics include the power dynamics within the legal system, the impact of public pressure on exonerations, and the pervasive issue of racial disparities in the justice system. Underlying themes explore the complexities of human nature, the importance of empathy and understanding, and the potential for positive change through a united front.

Major Topics in Joe Rogan Podcast #1774 – Josh Dubin

1. The Power of Public Pressure and the Role of Media

   1. Josh Dubin attributes the exoneration of two men to the attention garnered by his previous podcast appearance, highlighting the power of public pressure and media awareness in influencing the legal system.
   2. He emphasizes that public pressure can be a driving force behind justice, showcasing examples of cases like Purpose Pain, Julius Jones, and Rodney Reed, where public outcry led to positive outcomes.
   3. The podcast itself becomes a platform for amplifying these stories, bringing them to a wider audience and potentially impacting decisions made by prosecutors and authorities.
   4. This dynamic underscores the crucial role of media in holding the justice system accountable and advocating for those who may otherwise be silenced.

2. The Systemic Racism in the Criminal Justice System

   1. Josh Dubin directly addresses the racial disparities in the criminal justice system, highlighting the disproportionate number of Black men and women incarcerated, exonerated, and even killed by law enforcement.
   2. He emphasizes the role of unconscious and conscious biases, suggesting that the system is plagued by a perception of danger associated with people of color, particularly African Americans.
   3. He further criticizes the failure of both Democratic and Republican parties to effectively address this issue, calling for a united front to combat this systemic injustice.
   4. Dubin’s perspective underscores the need for a deeper societal dialogue and concrete solutions to dismantle these ingrained biases and inequities.

3. The Problem of No-Knock Warrants

   1. Josh Dubin delves into the controversial practice of no-knock warrants, citing cases like Amir Locke, Breonna Taylor, and Botham Jean, where these warrants tragically resulted in deaths.
   2. He challenges the rationale behind these warrants, which were initially implemented to target drug dealers and prevent evidence destruction, arguing that they disproportionately impact communities of color and contribute to tragic outcomes.
   3. He discusses the George Floyd Policing Act, which aimed to abolish no-knock warrants, highlighting the political divide and the failure of the act to pass, emphasizing the need for bipartisan support and compromise in addressing such issues.
   4. This discussion prompts critical reflection on the efficacy and ethical implications of these warrants, urging for a re-evaluation of this law enforcement tactic.

4. The Need for Police Reform and Better Training

   1. Josh Dubin argues for a comprehensive police reform agenda that includes improved training, higher qualifications, and a shift from a focus on revenue generation to a genuine dedication to serving communities.
   2. He stresses the importance of treating policing as a service, requiring rigorous training and preparation, akin to that of special forces units.
   3. He criticizes the current culture of fear and distrust, highlighting the psychological toll on both officers and communities, and calls for a focus on de-escalation techniques, empathy, and fostering positive relationships with the communities they serve.
   4. This discussion emphasizes the need for a cultural shift in law enforcement, moving away from a punitive and adversarial approach towards a more compassionate and community-oriented mindset.

5. The Importance of Addressing Root Causes of Crime

   1. Josh Dubin advocates for addressing the systemic issues that contribute to crime, arguing that investing in communities, providing economic opportunities, and creating safer environments can prevent crime before it occurs.
   2. He criticizes the lack of investment in marginalized communities, comparing it to the vast sums spent on rebuilding Iraq after the war, highlighting the hypocrisy of neglecting domestic issues while prioritizing foreign endeavors.
   3. He suggests that a comprehensive approach involving investment in education, infrastructure, job creation, and social services can lead to a more equitable society and reduce crime rates.
   4. This perspective emphasizes the need to focus on long-term solutions that address the root causes of crime, rather than simply relying on law enforcement as a Band-Aid solution.

6. The Importance of Empathy and Understanding

   1. Josh Dubin emphasizes the importance of empathy and understanding when assessing individuals accused of crimes, recognizing that past trauma, mental health, and situational factors can influence behavior and contribute to wrongful convictions.
   2. He challenges the common tendency to assume guilt and the prevalence of bias in the legal system, highlighting the need to consider individual circumstances and the complexities of human nature.
   3. He cites the case of Melissa Lucio, a mother on death row, as an example of someone who may have been coerced into a false confession due to trauma and vulnerability.
   4. This discussion underscores the need for a more nuanced and compassionate approach to justice, recognizing the human elements involved in each case.

7. The Reality of False Confessions and Prosecutorial Misconduct

   1. Josh Dubin sheds light on the phenomenon of false confessions, emphasizing that individuals, especially those who are vulnerable or under duress, can be pressured into admitting to crimes they did not commit.
   2. He stresses the importance of verifying the consistency of confession details with the physical evidence, highlighting the disparity that can often reveal a coerced confession.
   3. He cites Brendan Dassey’s case, featured in “Making a Murderer,” as an example of a false confession orchestrated by law enforcement.
   4. This discussion highlights the dangers of relying solely on confessions without considering the circumstances surrounding them and the potential for prosecutorial misconduct.

8. The Importance of Clemency and Redemption

   1. Josh Dubin champions the process of clemency, emphasizing its potential for granting second chances and offering redemption to those who may have been wrongfully incarcerated.
   2. He criticizes the lack of focus on clemency in many states, particularly highlighting the Florida system, where it is often disregarded or used procedurally to deny justice.
   3. He uses the cases of James Daly and Nelson Serrano in Florida as examples of individuals who may deserve a second look and a chance for clemency.
   4. This discussion urges for a greater emphasis on the power of redemption and forgiveness within the legal system, promoting a more humane approach to justice.

9. The Importance of Jury Selection and Presumption of Innocence

   1. Josh Dubin discusses the critical role of jury selection, highlighting the need to ensure that jurors are truly impartial and not influenced by biases or assumptions of guilt.
   2. He exposes the lack of transparency in the federal system, where judges often control jury selection, preventing attorneys from asking critical questions that could uncover potential biases.
   3. He emphasizes that the presumption of innocence is often overlooked, with studies showing that a majority of people assume guilt when someone is accused of a crime.
   4. This discussion calls for a greater emphasis on the presumption of innocence and urges for reforms to jury selection practices to ensure a more just and equitable system.

10. The Role of Technology in Truth and Justice

    1. Josh Dubin speculates on the potential of future technology, particularly neural interfaces like Neuralink, to provide access to a person’s thoughts and intentions, offering a more reliable way to determine truth and potentially revolutionize the legal system.
    2. He acknowledges the potential downsides of such technology, particularly the loss of human mystery and the complexities of human communication.
    3. He suggests that technology may become essential to combat the challenges of navigating the complexities of human nature and behavior.
    4. This discussion raises intriguing ethical questions about the future of truth, justice, and the role of technology in shaping our understanding of human consciousness and behavior.

11. The Impact of Social Media on Perception and Discourse

    1. Josh Dubin expresses concern about the impact of social media on public perception and discourse, highlighting the tendency to form opinions based on limited information and to dismiss individuals based on single tweets or actions.
    2. He emphasizes the importance of considering the complexities of human behavior, recognizing that individuals are multifaceted and that context is crucial in understanding their actions.
    3. He highlights the dangers of “othering” people and labeling them as irredeemable, which can hinder dialogue and compassion.
    4. This discussion encourages a more thoughtful and nuanced approach to online communication, urging for empathy, open-mindedness, and a willingness to engage with complexity.

12. The Importance of Fighting for Hope and Justice

    1. Josh Dubin shares stories of individuals he has helped, highlighting the immense power of hope and the transformative impact of fighting for justice.
    2. He emphasizes the role of individuals and organizations like the Innocence Project in providing support and advocacy for those who are wrongfully incarcerated.
    3. He encourages listeners to get involved in criminal justice reform by serving on juries, signing petitions, and supporting organizations dedicated to justice.
    4. This discussion serves as a powerful call to action, inspiring listeners to actively participate in creating a more equitable and just society.

Memorable Quotes

• “I am here not on behalf of the Innocence Project. I don’t speak for them, even though I’m the ambassador adviser. I there are other organizations that I’m involved with that pay attention to news cycles and media. I’m here as Josh Dubin, the human being. That is doing my part, and it’s not for me to judge whether it’s small or large. Doing my part to help in whatever way I can. Whether it’s a drop in the bucket, grain of sand or something more. That’s for someone else to judge to help free people that are wrongfully incarcerated. Period. Full stop.” – Dubin emphasizes his personal commitment to justice and his dedication to helping those wrongly incarcerated.
• “We’re never gonna see eye to eye with everyone. And we’re certainly not gonna see eye to eye with anyone in a 2-party system. That’s a problem. And it’s a huge problem. I think that’s the major problem, honestly. Because when you have a 2-party system, you have people that feel like they have to subscribe to all the opinions on one side if they agree to the critical ones. Like, what’s critical to them, whether it’s a woman’s right to choose, or whether it’s freedom of speech, or whether it’s a gun control, like, whatever it is on the one side, the you feel like you need to be aligned with, and then you’ll accept all the other nonsense that goes with it instead of what most people are. Most people are in the center. Like, the vast majority, but that’s not an option. There’s no center option.” – Dubin criticizes the two-party system’s tendency to polarize opinions and create an environment where compromise and common ground are difficult to find.
• “I’m ready to just, like, register non-declared or independent. You know? And I’ll I’ll you know, everybody is so like, you don’t ask people about their age, you don’t ask them who they voted for. You know, I voted for Joe Jorgensen. How’s the guy? Because I just feel like that was my way of saying no. Yeah. I’m saying no. This is a nonsense situation.” – Dubin expresses his disillusionment with the current political system and his desire for more independent thinking and action.
• “We all need to step away from our what we think our allegiance is in this 2-party system because I’m I’m ready to just, like, register non-declared or independent.” – Dubin encourages a shift in perspective from blind party allegiance to a more independent, critical, and nuanced view of political issues.
• “I think we are destined to become cyborgs. And I don’t think there’s any way around it. Mhmm. I think what our reliance upon technology is so extreme and so overwhelming and I think one of the answers to the solution that we were talking about earlier about this the the social media aspect of communication. Like, the the social media aspect of the way we talk about people and share information and write people off. This the only way we’re gonna pass this is better technology.” – Dubin speculates on the inevitable integration of technology into human lives, suggesting that it might play a significant role in addressing challenges posed by social media and other societal issues.