JRE #1878 – Roger Waters

This podcast features a wide-ranging conversation with Roger Waters, legendary Pink Floyd co-founder and solo artist. Waters, known for his outspoken views, tackles a variety of provocative and topical issues, weaving them seamlessly into his personal experiences and artistic journey. The podcast delves into themes of human rights, political activism, the power of music, and the dangers of misinformation and propaganda.

1. Roger Waters’s Activism and the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) Movement

   1. Waters’s initial experience with the BDS movement stemmed from a planned concert in Israel. He initially agreed to perform but, after receiving emails from BDS supporters and being persuaded by Omar Barghouti, a key figure in BDS, he canceled the performance.
   2. Waters relocated the concert to an agricultural community called Wahat Assalem in Arabic, a symbol of peaceful co-existence for Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists, and others. He noted the stark reality that Palestinians are not allowed to travel freely, effectively barring them from the concert.
   3. Waters’s speech at the concert, calling for peace and dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians, was met with a chilling silence. He contrasts this reaction with the fervent support he received from Israeli audiences at other performances.
   4. Waters’s activism, fueled by his experiences in the occupied territories, centers around promoting equality and human rights for Palestinians. He compares the Israeli model to apartheid South Africa, highlighting the system’s severity and the parallel with South African leaders like Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela’s condemnation of the Israeli model as far worse than South African apartheid.

2. The Ukraine Conflict and the Dangers of Escalation

   1. Waters emphasizes the need for peace talks and diplomacy in the Ukraine conflict, urging an end to the war and a ceasefire. He criticizes the hawkish stance of both sides, highlighting the ever-present risk of nuclear escalation.
   2. Waters criticizes the role of the United States in the conflict, arguing that NATO’s expansion and the orchestration of a coup in Ukraine have contributed to tensions with Russia. He points to the 1990 agreement between U.S. Secretary of State James Baker and Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev regarding NATO’s non-expansion as a key factor.
   3. Waters’s open letter to Russian President Vladimir Putin, urging negotiation and a ceasefire, is discussed. He expresses frustration with those who demonize Putin without seeking dialogue. He points to the Cuban Missile Crisis as a historical example of successful diplomacy through communication between opposing leaders.
   4. Waters contrasts the U.S. and NATO’s actions with China’s non-interventionist foreign policy, noting that China has not invaded a country in over a century. He acknowledges China’s invasion of Tibet in 1959 as a significant exception but highlights China’s more modern approach of economic investment and trade as a means of influence, contrasting it with the more brutal methods used by European powers in the past.

3. The Influence of Money and the Role of Media in Shaping Narratives

   1. Waters strongly advocates for removing money from politics, arguing that it corrupts the decision-making process and leads to wars and policies that benefit only the wealthy. He cites the Citizens United Supreme Court decision as a key factor in this issue.
   2. He criticizes the media’s role in perpetuating the status quo, highlighting the influence of wealthy advertisers and the suppression of inconvenient truths. He cites the case of Steve Donziger, an environmental lawyer facing legal battles with Chevron over pollution in Ecuador, as an example of this.
   3. Waters criticizes the role of social media companies like Facebook and Twitter in controlling narratives and censoring information. He argues that these companies, driven by profits and influence, have a dangerous power over public discourse. He uses the Hunter Biden laptop controversy as an example, highlighting how Facebook limited engagement with the story, citing Russian disinformation as a justification, even though evidence suggests it was legitimate.
   4. Waters emphasizes the importance of individual responsibility for critical thinking and seeking diverse perspectives. He credits his mother’s advice to “read, read, read, and learn everything you can” as a crucial guiding principle in his own approach to understanding complex issues. He criticizes the tendency of the media to present simplistic, polarized narratives, often lacking in nuance and accuracy.

4. The Power of Music and the Importance of Vulnerability

   1. Waters emphasizes the powerful role music plays in connecting people and conveying messages. He notes that his concerts are not merely performances but also opportunities for social commentary and artistic expression.
   2. He discusses the importance of being vulnerable in performance and engaging with audiences on a deeper level. He believes this vulnerability fosters connection and allows audiences to engage with his messages more authentically.
   3. He credits his recent tour as a breakthrough in his ability to connect with audiences and communicate his messages effectively. He attributes this success to his willingness to be open and honest with his audiences, sharing both his artistic vision and his personal convictions.
   4. He argues that music can serve as a positive force for change, challenging audiences to think critically and engage with important issues. He believes that music can serve as a powerful tool for social and political activism, fostering dialogue and challenging the status quo.

5. The Legacy of Pink Floyd and the Impact of Sid Barrett

   1. Waters reflects on the early days of Pink Floyd, acknowledging that drug use, particularly hashish, was prevalent during the band’s formative years. However, he insists that it did not significantly impact his songwriting.
   2. He discusses the tragic decline of Syd Barrett, the band’s original frontman, attributing his mental deterioration to excessive LSD use. He highlights the impact of Barrett’s departure on the band, both creatively and emotionally, forcing them to adapt and evolve their sound and songwriting.
   3. Waters emphasizes the lasting impact of Barrett’s songwriting, particularly his unique style and lyrical approach. He credits Barrett with influencing his own songwriting, leading to the development of a more introspective and metaphorical style.
   4. Waters acknowledges the emotional toll of Barrett’s mental decline, describing it as an existential threat to the band’s future. He emphasizes the profound impact of losing a founding member and friend, both creatively and personally.

6. The Complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

   1. Waters passionately criticizes the Israeli government’s policies, describing them as apartheid and calling for equal rights for Palestinians. He argues that the Israeli government’s actions are not representative of Judaism and should not be conflated with the religion.
   2. He discusses the ongoing violence against Palestinians, highlighting the role of Israeli settlements and the denial of basic human rights. He criticizes the media’s tendency to portray the conflict in simplistic terms, often blaming Palestinian resistance rather than addressing the root causes of the conflict.
   3. He discusses the role of the United States in perpetuating the conflict, highlighting its unwavering support for Israel and its veto power at the United Nations, which prevents any meaningful action to address the situation.
   4. He argues that achieving peace requires a genuine commitment to equal rights and a willingness to address the historical injustices faced by Palestinians. He emphasizes the need for international pressure on the Israeli government to end the occupation and recognize Palestinian rights.

7. The Dangers of Censorship and the Importance of Truth-Telling

   1. Waters condemns the practice of censorship, arguing that it undermines free speech and prevents open dialogue. He criticizes the role of social media companies and mainstream media in controlling narratives and suppressing dissenting voices.
   2. He discusses the case of Julian Assange, highlighting the dangers of persecuting whistleblowers and journalists who expose wrongdoing. He criticizes the U.S. government’s pursuit of Assange, arguing that it is an attempt to silence him and intimidate other potential whistleblowers.
   3. He discusses the Jeffrey Epstein case, highlighting the failure of authorities to hold powerful individuals accountable for sex trafficking and other crimes. He criticizes the media’s suppression of information about Epstein’s network and its ties to powerful individuals.
   4. He argues that the pursuit of truth and justice is essential for a healthy democracy. He emphasizes the importance of critical thinking, questioning authority, and challenging the status quo to expose corruption and ensure accountability.

Memorable Quotes:

• “It is criminal not to be trying to end the war in Ukraine.” – Waters underscores the urgency of diplomatic efforts to resolve the conflict.
• “You can’t ignore 100 million dead.” – Waters highlights the tragic consequences of wars, challenging those who dismiss them as distant history.
• “The only reason why people would get involved in politics without money is to try to make the world a better place.” – Waters emphasizes the need to cleanse politics of financial influence.
• “I see you, and that’s what the bar is all about.” – Waters captures the essence of vulnerability and shared humanity in his music and message.
• “Language is so important…Unless you speak the language, you can’t begin to take part in the conversation.” – Waters underscores the importance of understanding cultural context in navigating complex global issues.