JRE #1964 – Rick Doblin

31-Mar-23

This podcast is a deep dive into the work of Rick Doblin, Ph.D., founder and president of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), a non-profit organization dedicated to researching and advocating for the therapeutic use of psychedelics. It’s a compelling conversation that delves into the history of psychedelic research, the controversial nature of these substances, and the potential for their use in treating conditions like PTSD and addiction. Provocative topics include the drug war, the ethical considerations of psychedelic research, and the potential for MAPS to become a publicly traded company. Underlying themes explore the importance of personal experience, the power of storytelling, and the potential for psychedelics to reshape societal views and offer profound solutions to mental health challenges.

Major Topics in the Podcast:

1. Rick Doblin’s Early Life and Motivation:

• Doblin’s decision to focus his life on psychedelics at a young age, a choice that was risky and unconventional, especially in the 1970s.
• His experience as a draft resistor during the Vietnam War, reflecting his anti-war stance and commitment to civil disobedience.
• The significance of the Jimmy Carter pardon for draft resistors, a turning point in Doblin’s self-perception and his path toward psychedelic advocacy.
• The personal and professional impact of Doblin’s early experiences and how they shaped his commitment to MAPS and its mission.

2. Psychedelics and PTSD:

• The growing recognition of the potential benefits of psychedelics, particularly MDMA, for treating PTSD, especially among veterans.
• MAPS’s groundbreaking Phase 3 studies on MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD, which have shown remarkable results and are a major step toward FDA approval.
• The shift in public perception of psychedelics from being seen as a counterculture drug to a potential treatment for serious mental health conditions.
• The potential for psychedelics to be a valuable tool in addressing the mental health needs of veterans, a population that has traditionally been underserved by traditional therapies.

3. The Drug War and Its Legacy:

• Doblin’s perspective on the drug war as a flawed and ultimately harmful policy, highlighting its historical roots in political agendas.
• The impact of the drug war on psychedelic research and the criminalization of substances like ibogaine, which have shown promise in treating addiction.
• The need for drug policy reform, particularly in light of the opioid crisis and the growing recognition of the therapeutic potential of psychedelics.
• Doblin’s optimism about the potential for a post-prohibition world, where psychedelics are decriminalized and recognized for their potential benefits.

4. Personal Psychedelic Experiences:

• Doblin’s personal experiences with DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and ibogaine, highlighting the profound and transformative nature of these substances.
• His descriptions of psychedelic experiences as a means of dismantling egoic constructs, accessing deeper levels of consciousness, and connecting with the universal mystery of existence.
• The role of psychedelic experiences in challenging preconceived notions and promoting a more open and expansive perspective on the world.
• The importance of integrating psychedelic experiences into one’s life and the potential for these experiences to lead to lasting personal growth and transformation.

5. Ibogaine as a Treatment for Addiction:

• The potential of ibogaine to treat opioid addiction, a significant public health issue that has become a national crisis in the United States.
• The current legal challenges surrounding ibogaine, which remains illegal in the United States, forcing individuals seeking treatment to travel to other countries.
• MAPS’s efforts to advocate for the legalization of ibogaine and the potential for clinical trials to demonstrate its safety and efficacy in treating addiction.
• Doblin’s belief that ibogaine is a valuable tool for addressing the opioid crisis and could be made available in the United States through a combination of advocacy, research, and policy change.

6. The Rise of Psychedelic Companies:

• The emergence of for-profit psychedelic companies, which are seeking to capitalize on the growing interest in these substances.
• Doblin’s concerns about the potential for profit motives to overshadow public benefit and the ethical implications of commercializing psychedelics.
• MAPS’s approach as a non-profit organization, focusing on research and advocacy to ensure that psychedelics are made available as medicines for the benefit of all.
• The potential for MAPS to become a publicly traded company, a decision that Doblin acknowledges is a difficult one and has both potential benefits and risks.

7. The Importance of Honoring the Sacred:

• Doblin’s belief that psychedelics are sacred substances and that their use should be approached with respect and reverence.
• His concerns about the potential for commercialization to undermine the sacred nature of psychedelics and prioritize profit over ethical considerations.
• The importance of integrating psychedelics into a holistic approach to healing and transformation, one that honors the individual, their experiences, and their connection to something larger than themselves.
• Doblin’s call for a mindful and ethical approach to the development and use of psychedelics, one that prioritizes public benefit and human well-being.

8. The Importance of Storytelling:

• Doblin’s recognition of the power of storytelling in shaping our understanding of the world and our own place in it.
• The role of stories in shaping public perception of psychedelics, from negative narratives of drug abuse to positive stories of healing and transformation.
• The importance of telling authentic and honest stories about psychedelic experiences, avoiding exaggeration or minimizing risks.
• The power of personal stories to connect with individuals on a human level and create understanding and empathy.

9. MAPS’s Vision for the Future:

• MAPS’s ambitious goal of achieving “Net 0 Trauma by 2070,” which aims to reduce the burden of trauma in society through widespread access to healing modalities.
• The potential for psychedelics to play a key role in achieving this vision, particularly in addressing the widespread trauma experienced by veterans, prisoners, and other marginalized populations.
• MAPS’s commitment to a global approach to healing, seeking to expand access to psychedelic therapies around the world.
• Doblin’s hope for a future where psychedelics are embraced as tools for healing, personal growth, and social change.

10. The Future of Psychedelic Research:

• The potential for MAPS’s research to serve as a model for future psychedelic research, paving the way for the development of other psychedelic medicines.
• The growing interest in psilocybin as a potential treatment for depression and other mental health conditions.
• The need for further research to explore the therapeutic potential of various psychedelics and to develop best practices for their use.
• Doblin’s hope that MAPS’s work will contribute to a paradigm shift in the way we think about psychedelics and their role in human well-being.

4-Point Summary of Each Topic:

1. Rick Doblin’s Early Life and Motivation:

• Doblin’s early commitment to psychedelics was a bold choice made against the backdrop of the restrictive drug policies of the 1970s.
• His experiences as a draft resistor and his identification with civil disobedience shaped his core values and his desire to challenge societal norms.
• The Jimmy Carter pardon for draft resistors marked a turning point in Doblin’s life, allowing him to embrace his identity as a psychedelic advocate without fear of legal repercussions.
• These experiences ultimately contributed to Doblin’s lifelong dedication to MAPS, an organization he founded to advance the responsible research and use of psychedelics.

2. Psychedelics and PTSD:

• MDMA, in particular, has shown remarkable promise as a therapeutic agent for PTSD, especially for veterans who have struggled with traditional therapies.
• MAPS’s Phase 3 studies have generated significant scientific evidence supporting the efficacy and safety of MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD, paving the way for FDA approval.
• The growing acceptance of psychedelics as potential treatments for serious mental health conditions has shifted public discourse and created momentum for further research and policy change.
• This shift in perception offers hope for a future where veterans and others struggling with PTSD have access to effective and compassionate treatments.

3. The Drug War and Its Legacy:

• Doblin views the drug war as a policy rooted in political agendas rather than scientific evidence, resulting in the criminalization of substances with potential therapeutic benefits.
• The drug war has stifled research and hindered progress in developing treatments for addiction, while simultaneously fueling a black market and increasing violence.
• The need for drug policy reform is increasingly recognized, with the opioid crisis serving as a stark reminder of the failures of prohibition and the need for a more compassionate approach.
• Doblin envisions a future where the drug war is seen as a historical mistake, and psychedelics are recognized for their potential to contribute to human well-being.

4. Personal Psychedelic Experiences:

• Doblin’s personal experiences with DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and ibogaine highlight the potential of psychedelics to induce profound experiences of altered consciousness.
• These experiences have challenged Doblin’s preconceived notions about the nature of reality and his place in the universe, leading to a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of all things.
• Doblin emphasizes the importance of integrating these experiences into one’s life and using them as catalysts for personal growth and transformation.
• His willingness to share his personal experiences underscores the power of storytelling and the potential for these stories to inspire and educate others.

5. Ibogaine as a Treatment for Addiction:

• Ibogaine has shown promise in treating opioid addiction, particularly for individuals struggling with severe dependence and withdrawal symptoms.
• The current legal status of ibogaine in the United States hinders access to treatment and forces individuals to seek it in other countries.
• MAPS is actively advocating for the legalization of ibogaine and is conducting research to demonstrate its safety and efficacy in treating addiction.
• Doblin believes that ibogaine could be a valuable tool in combating the opioid crisis, and MAPS is working towards making it a legitimate and accessible treatment option in the United States.

6. The Rise of Psychedelic Companies:

• The emergence of for-profit psychedelic companies signals a growing commercial interest in these substances, driven by the potential for financial gain.
• Doblin expresses concern about the potential for profit motives to overshadow public benefit and the need for ethical considerations in developing and distributing psychedelic medicines.
• MAPS’s non-profit model prioritizes research and advocacy, ensuring that psychedelics are made available as medicines for the benefit of all, regardless of their ability to pay.
• The potential for MAPS to become a publicly traded company presents both opportunities and risks, requiring careful consideration of its impact on the organization’s mission and values.

7. The Importance of Honoring the Sacred:

• Doblin believes that psychedelics are sacred substances and that their use should be approached with respect, reverence, and intentionality.
• He expresses concern that the commercialization of psychedelics could undermine their sacred nature and prioritize profit over ethical considerations.
• Doblin advocates for a holistic approach to healing and transformation, one that honors the individual’s experiences and their connection to something larger than themselves.
• He believes that the development and use of psychedelics should be guided by principles of public benefit and human well-being, ensuring that their potential is harnessed for the good of all.

8. The Importance of Storytelling:

• Doblin recognizes the power of storytelling in shaping our understanding of the world and our own place in it, influencing public perception and shaping societal norms.
• He emphasizes the importance of sharing authentic and honest stories about psychedelic experiences, balancing both positive and negative aspects, and avoiding exaggeration or distortion.
• Personal stories about psychedelic experiences can be powerful tools for fostering empathy, understanding, and connection between individuals.
• Doblin believes that sharing these stories is essential for creating a more nuanced and compassionate approach to psychedelics.

9. MAPS’s Vision for the Future:

• MAPS aims to achieve “Net 0 Trauma by 2070” by reducing the burden of trauma in society through widespread access to healing modalities like psychedelic therapies.
• Doblin envisions a world where psychedelics are recognized as valuable tools for healing trauma, promoting mental well-being, and fostering social change.
• MAPS is committed to a global approach, seeking to expand access to psychedelic therapies in countries around the world, particularly in regions affected by conflict, poverty, and violence.
• This vision reflects a profound hope for a future where psychedelics play a key role in creating a more compassionate, just, and enlightened world.

10. The Future of Psychedelic Research:

• MAPS’s groundbreaking research on MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD has paved the way for future research and development of other psychedelic medicines.
• Psilocybin, in particular, has shown promise as a potential treatment for depression and is likely to be the next psychedelic to undergo FDA approval.
• Doblin believes that further research is essential for exploring the therapeutic potential of various psychedelics and developing best practices for their use in clinical settings.
• He hopes that MAPS’s work will contribute to a paradigm shift in the way we think about psychedelics, recognizing their potential as transformative tools for individual healing and societal progress.

5 Memorable Quotes:

• “Back then, it must’ve been a big risk because in the 19 seventies, when you focused your life on psychedelics, that was, like, right after that whole sweeping schedule 1, psychedelics act was passed. Right?” – Joe Rogan acknowledges the risks Doblin took by dedicating his life to psychedelics in a time of intense social and legal opposition.
• “It’s one of the rare military operations in history that’s like universally regarded as a terrible thing. Yes. I mean, nobody today defends the Vietnam War.” – Rogan reflects on the universal condemnation of the Vietnam War, drawing parallels to the potential for future condemnation of the drug war.
• “I think we can get back through all of the intracellular knowledge that is stored in our bodies. Yeah. And and connect with this deeper, unitive sense. It’s amazing.” – Doblin describes the potential of psychedelics to unlock deeper levels of consciousness and connect us with the wisdom of our biological past.
• “So I think we could make a good scientific and rational case now that I became never should have been criminalized, and it should be legally available, but by trained therapists in proper circumstances so that the safety is fine.” – Doblin advocates for the legalization of ibogaine, highlighting its potential benefits for treating addiction and its lack of evidence for abuse.
• “The essence of democracy is trying to find common ground with people with whom you may disagree on everything else.” – Stephen Breyer, a Supreme Court justice, offers a powerful perspective on the importance of building bridges and finding common ground in a polarized society.