JRE #41 – Ari Shaffir

This podcast dives headfirst into a provocative exploration of religion, free speech, and the human tendency towards extremism. Ari Shaffir, a comedian known for his sharp wit and fearless commentary, joins Joe Rogan for a lively discussion that challenges conventional thinking and delves into the darker corners of human nature. Expect a rollercoaster ride through topics that are sure to ignite debate and spark introspection.

Major Topics:

1. **The Double Standard of Criticizing Islam:**

• The podcast opens with a pointed critique of the double standard surrounding criticism of Islam, contrasting it with the relative ease of criticizing other religions like Christianity.
• Rogan and Shaffir argue that this double standard stems from a combination of understandable fears of racism and xenophobia, coupled with a sense of white guilt and political correctness.
• They lament the silencing effect of being labeled “Islamophobic” for any criticism of the religion, even when it’s directed at specific ideologies within Islam.
• The discussion touches on the phenomenon of progressive outlets like Salon demonizing anyone who criticizes Islam, even when their criticisms are nuanced and grounded in fact.

2. **The Danger of Extreme Ideologies:**

• Shaffir and Rogan emphasize the real and dangerous consequences of extreme ideologies within Islam, highlighting the link between these ideologies and the suffering of millions.
• They argue that the concept of “paradise” and the belief in a specific path to attain it can motivate even otherwise rational individuals to engage in violent extremism.
• The discussion touches on the issue of apostasy, which is punishable by death in many interpretations of Islam, emphasizing the strictness of some Islamic doctrines.
• They argue that the fusion of religion and politics in certain versions of Islam creates a challenging obstacle to achieving global civil society.

3. **The Role of Religion in Society:**

• The podcast explores the role of religion in human evolution, questioning whether it served as a necessary scaffolding for the development of society.
• Shaffir proposes that religion may have served evolutionary purposes by fostering cohesion among large groups and providing a framework for morality and ethics.
• Rogan argues that the most fundamental piece of religion is belief formation, which is a human cognitive mechanism that also underlies science, reason, and other aspects of human cognition.
• They discuss the potential downsides of faith, highlighting the way it can lead to intellectual dishonesty, cognitive dissonance, and an inability to reconcile belief with reality.

4. **The Dehumanization of the Other:**

• The podcast explores the phenomenon of dehumanization, particularly in the context of war and conflict.
• Shaffir argues that our default mode is to view those outside our immediate tribe as less than human, a behavior observed in both humans and chimpanzees.
• They discuss the way that individuals in cultures with misaligned incentives and bad ideas can essentially act like psychopaths, capable of terrible violence.
• The podcast references the assassination of Malala Yousafzai, a young woman who was shot by the Taliban for wanting to go to school, as an example of the potential for seemingly normal people to commit horrific acts when driven by an ideology.

5. **The Role of Martial Arts in Character Development:**

• Shaffir and Rogan discuss the importance of martial arts, particularly Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, in fostering character development and overcoming fear.
• They argue that martial arts training provides a valuable opportunity to push one’s physical and mental limits, learn discipline, and build resilience.
• Shaffir shares his personal experiences with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, highlighting the transformative effects it has had on his own understanding of himself and the world.
• They contrast the benefits of realistic martial arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu with the more fantasy-based styles, emphasizing the importance of skills that are actually tested in real-world situations.

6. **The Power of Belief and Self-Deception:**

• The podcast dives into the psychological mechanisms that allow people to believe in seemingly impossible things, such as fake martial arts and religious doctrines.
• Shaffir and Rogan discuss the role of social pressure, sunk cost, confirmation bias, and hypnotism in perpetuating these beliefs.
• They explore the concept of cognitive closure, the need for certainty, and the discomfort many people experience when faced with ambiguity or uncertainty.
• The discussion highlights the difficulty of debunking deeply held beliefs, even when confronted with evidence to the contrary.

7. **The Ethics of Lying:**

• The podcast delves into the ethics of lying, challenging the idea of “white lies” and arguing for the importance of honesty.
• Shaffir asserts that lying can erode trust, distort relationships, and ultimately lead to a distorted understanding of oneself and one’s place in the world.
• They explore the way lying can allow people to avoid confronting difficult truths about themselves and their relationships.
• The discussion emphasizes the importance of personal integrity and the benefits of living an honest life.

8. **The Implications of Increasing Transparency:**

• The podcast explores the potential implications of increasing transparency brought about by technology, particularly in the realm of surveillance.
• They discuss the potential for technology to make lying obsolete through the development of lie detection technology.
• Shaffir argues that the widespread use of lie detection technology could significantly alter the way we interact with each other, especially in the legal and political spheres.
• The discussion raises ethical questions about the potential for misuse of lie detection technology and the implications for our notions of privacy and cognitive liberty.

9. **The Role of Government and Espionage:**

• The podcast delves into the complexities of government espionage and the ongoing debate surrounding the NSA’s surveillance programs.
• Shaffir expresses his skepticism towards the government’s claims that these programs are necessary to prevent terrorism, highlighting the evidence of spying on allies and non-terrorist leaders.
• They discuss the ethical challenges of balancing national security with individual privacy, questioning whether the price of transparency is too high.
• The podcast explores the role of whistleblowers like Edward Snowden and the difficult question of where to draw the line between espionage and treason.

10. **The Nature of Conspiracy Theories:**

• The podcast examines the prevalence of conspiracy theories, particularly in the context of 9/11 and the belief that the US government was involved in the attacks.
• Shaffir challenges the idea that these beliefs are simply the product of ignorance or stupidity, proposing that they often tap into a deep-seated need for certainty and an aversion to ambiguity.
• They discuss the role of confirmation bias, the tendency to seek out information that confirms existing beliefs, in perpetuating these theories.
• The podcast explores the distinction between conspiracy theories and real instances of false flag operations conducted by governments.

11. **The War on Terror and Its Consequences:**

• The podcast examines the War on Terror, analyzing its motivations and consequences.
• Shaffir and Rogan discuss the role of US foreign policy in fueling extremism and the dangers of occupation.
• They argue that the US should focus on covert operations and targeted assassinations rather than large-scale occupations, which they believe exacerbate tensions and create a sense of resentment.
• The podcast highlights the importance of engaging moderate Muslims in the fight against extremism and emphasizes the need to deflate the perception that the West is at war with Islam.

12. **The Drug Trade and US Involvement:**

• The podcast delves into the connection between the US military presence in Afghanistan and the increase in heroin production.
• Shaffir and Rogan discuss the potential for US involvement in the drug trade, both as a means of control and profit.
• The discussion touches on the history of US involvement in drug smuggling, citing examples like the CIA’s alleged role in the drug trade during the Vietnam War and the recent plane crash with several tons of cocaine in Mexico.
• They highlight the potential for conflicts of interest within government and the challenges of separating genuine national security concerns from profit-driven motives.

13. **The Influence of Powerful Interests:**

• The podcast explores the influence of powerful interests in shaping government policy, particularly in the context of war and corporate profits.
• Shaffir and Rogan discuss the role of companies like Halliburton in profiting from war, questioning whether these companies have a vested interest in perpetuating conflict.
• They analyze the potential for political corruption and the challenges of holding powerful entities accountable.
• The discussion emphasizes the need for transparency and accountability in government and the importance of questioning those in positions of power.

14. **The Human Capacity for Evil:**

• The podcast concludes by examining the human capacity for evil, exploring the ways in which individuals can be influenced by systems of incentives and ideologies.
• Shaffir and Rogan discuss the importance of recognizing the potential for otherwise good people to behave in evil ways when faced with perverse incentives and misaligned interests.
• They emphasize the importance of fostering personal integrity and ethical decision-making, as well as creating systems that promote honesty and align incentives for good behavior.
• The podcast highlights the importance of recognizing the dark side of human nature, while still holding out hope for the possibility of progress and positive change.

Memorable Quotes:

• “It’s a very dangerous irony in a double standard. It’s really it’s it’s one of the most disturbing phenomenon, I think, to just to be found on the landscape now.” – Joe Rogan on the double standard surrounding criticism of Islam.
• “And there’s no talking to them. And then there’s a there’s a a much faster number of of people around them who support them, who are not jihadists, but who are basically aligned with them in in terms of the worldview.” – Joe Rogan on the support network surrounding jihadists.
• “It’s it’s dumb. It’s weird. It’s insane. If you think that in 2013 with the kind of access to information we have, that we really believe that someone actually wrote this stuff down from the divine. It’s craziness.” – Ari Shaffir on the absurdity of believing in the literal word of God in the modern age.
• “It’s it’s a huge problem that we can dehumanize other people. It’s also a huge problem that we can be part of systems and collaborate in ways which effectively destroy other people’s lives, and we don’t even notice it.” – Ari Shaffir on the dangers of dehumanization and systemic injustice.
• “If you want, maybe there’s actually no change in a person’s life that I think is more important in terms of getting your life straight, your your relationship’s straight, you’re getting into the future without screwing it up for yourself. There’s no more important change than a commitment to being honest.” – Ari Shaffir on the importance of honesty in all aspects of life.