JRE #444 – John Hackleman

1/21/2014

This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience dives into the world of mixed martial arts with John Hackleman, a legendary trainer known for his old-school methods and his work with iconic fighters like Chuck Liddell. The podcast covers a wide range of topics, from the evolution of MMA to the controversial subject of testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), offering insightful commentary and revealing anecdotes. Underlying themes touch on the dedication and mental fortitude required in combat sports, the ethical dilemmas faced by fighters and trainers, and the enduring allure of traditional martial arts philosophies.

Major Topics & 4-Point Summaries

1. Chuck Liddell’s Career and Legacy

• John Hackleman trained Chuck Liddell from the beginning of his career, witnessing his rise to become one of the most dominant and exciting fighters in MMA history.
• Liddell’s signature knockout power and relentless aggression, combined with his durability, made him a fan favorite, attracting huge audiences to the UFC.
• The podcast explores Liddell’s killer instinct, how it manifested in his fights, and how Hackleman attempted to manage it during training.
• Hackleman shares details of Liddell’s training regimen, including specific drills designed to improve his technique and conditioning, highlighting the dedication required to reach the top of the sport.

2. The Camaraderie and Ethics of Martial Arts

• Hackleman contrasts the culture of MMA with boxing, emphasizing the strong sense of camaraderie and respect present in martial arts.
• He highlights instances of fighters showing respect for their opponents, even in the heat of battle, exemplified by Chuck Liddell’s demeanor and the pre-fight bows seen in some MMA contests.
• The discussion delves into the traditional martial arts philosophies, emphasizing their role in fostering mental discipline and reducing uncertainty.
• Hackleman believes these philosophies are crucial for fighters, providing a sense of purpose and self-awareness that can benefit their performance and their lives beyond combat sports.

3. Glover Teixeira’s Rise and Upcoming Title Fight

• Glover Teixeira is a Brazilian fighter known for his incredible power and conditioning, with a long history of dominating opponents in various organizations.
• Despite facing visa issues for years, Teixeira finally made his way to the UFC and quickly established himself as a top contender, earning a title shot against Jon Jones.
• Hackleman discusses Teixeira’s unique fighting style, highlighting his powerful knockout punches, strong wrestling, and impressive jiu-jitsu skills, making him a well-rounded threat.
• The podcast analyzes the upcoming Teixeira vs. Jones fight, predicting a close and exciting encounter given Jones’s recent near-loss to Alexander Gustafsson and Teixeira’s explosive power.

4. The Importance of Strength and Conditioning

• Hackleman is known for his unconventional strength and conditioning methods, emphasizing hard work and manual labor to build resilience and stamina.
• He shares his own journey, learning about training from books and pushing himself to his limits, influenced by legendary boxers like Rocky Marciano.
• The discussion covers the significance of pushing fighters to their limits during training, preparing them for the intense demands of a fight.
• Hackleman’s unique approach incorporates wheelbarrow workouts, hill sprints, and Tabata protocols, blending traditional methods with modern scientific training principles.

5. The Controversial Use of Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) in MMA

• TRT, used by fighters to manage low testosterone levels, has become a highly debated topic in MMA, with concerns about its potential impact on fighters’ health and the fairness of competition.
• Hackleman offers his perspective, arguing that chronic brain trauma from fighting can potentially influence testosterone production, but that TRT use is often a consequence of previous steroid use.
• He questions the medical justification for TRT in young fighters, suggesting that it might be used for performance enhancement rather than addressing genuine medical needs.
• Hackleman raises ethical concerns about TRT, questioning whether fighters with low testosterone levels due to head injuries should continue competing in a sport that risks further brain damage.

6. The Evolution of MMA Techniques

• The podcast explores how MMA has evolved over the years, incorporating various martial arts techniques, with some previously disregarded styles now finding their place in the sport.
• Hackleman highlights the rise of Taekwondo techniques, specifically the wheel kick, as a powerful weapon in MMA, exemplified by Vitor Belfort’s recent use of the move.
• He discusses the impact of Kung Fu, Judo, and other martial arts on the sport, acknowledging their effectiveness despite not being initially embraced by the MMA community.
• The discussion touches on the importance of fighters constantly adapting and incorporating new techniques to stay ahead in a rapidly evolving sport.

7. The Cultural Acceptance of Female Fighters and Injuries

• Hackleman addresses the unique challenges faced by female fighters, particularly the cultural expectations surrounding beauty and the acceptance of injuries.
• He expresses his personal discomfort with seeing female fighters sustain significant cuts and injuries, contrasting it with the more acceptable norms for male fighters.
• The discussion explores the potential impact on female fighters’ careers and public perception as they age and bear the marks of their battles in the octagon.
• Hackleman acknowledges the exceptional skill and determination of female fighters but highlights his reservations regarding the long-term consequences of their participation in a brutal sport.

8. The Role of the Cornerman

• Hackleman emphasizes the crucial role of cornermen in MMA, providing strategic guidance, emotional support, and tactical adjustments during fights.
• He highlights the importance of maintaining calm and composure in the corner, even under pressure, offering guidance and encouragement to fighters facing adversity.
• Hackleman shares his experiences working with fighters like Court McGee and Chuck Liddell, detailing how he motivates them to persevere and achieve success.
• The discussion delves into the ethical considerations cornermen face, emphasizing the need to balance the desire for victory with the responsibility to protect the fighter’s well-being.

9. The Weight Cutting Phenomenon in MMA

• Hackleman discusses the extreme weight cutting practices in MMA, highlighting the health risks associated with rapid dehydration and electrolyte imbalance.
• He shares his personal experiences with weight cutting, emphasizing the dangers of excessive weight loss and the importance of finding a sustainable approach.
• The podcast examines the potential solutions to weight cutting issues, including weigh-ins on the day of the fight or stricter weight regulations.
• Hackleman emphasizes the need to prioritize fighters’ health and safety, urging for a more balanced and responsible approach to weight management.

10. The Importance of a Balanced Diet and Sustainable Living

• Hackleman stresses the significance of a balanced diet, particularly for athletes, highlighting the role of essential nutrients and minerals in maintaining optimal health and performance.
• He emphasizes the benefits of a high-alkaline diet, rich in green leafy vegetables, but cautions against overconsumption of specific foods like kale, which can lead to negative consequences.
• Hackleman promotes a diverse and varied diet, advocating for the consumption of whole foods, particularly wild game, as a healthier and more ethical alternative to factory-farmed meats.
• He expresses his concern for the environmental and ethical implications of factory farming, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices and a shift towards more ethical food production.

11. The Fascinating World of Traditional Martial Arts

• Hackleman discusses his early martial arts training in Hawaii, highlighting the influence of Kajukenbo, a unique and hardcore style combining karate, judo, kenpo, and boxing.
• He explains the origins and principles of Kajukenbo, emphasizing its emphasis on practical self-defense and its roots in street fighting.
• The discussion covers the enduring appeal of traditional martial arts, with Hackleman incorporating elements of old-school training methods into his own system, Crosspit.
• Hackleman reflects on the importance of blending traditional martial arts philosophies with modern training techniques, ensuring the continued evolution and effectiveness of the sport.

12. The Impact of Personality and Fighting Styles

• Hackleman emphasizes the importance of personality in a fighter’s success, highlighting how certain traits like aggression, mental toughness, and composure contribute to their performance.
• He discusses the different fighting styles and how they affect the outcome of a fight, analyzing the advantages and disadvantages of reach, strength, and technical skills.
• The podcast explores the impact of fighting styles on fighters’ legacies, comparing the styles of iconic fighters like Mike Tyson, Chuck Liddell, and Jon Jones.
• Hackleman emphasizes the importance of recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of different fighting styles and developing strategies to counter them.

13. The Evolution of MMA Commentary

• Hackleman reflects on his journey into MMA commentary, detailing how he transitioned from a trainer to a color commentator for the UFC.
• He acknowledges the unique opportunity given to him by Dana White, who believed in his ability to provide insightful commentary despite having no prior experience.
• Hackleman discusses the importance of developing chemistry with his commentary partner, Joe Rogan, highlighting their shared passion for the sport and their deep knowledge of the fighters and techniques.
• He expresses his gratitude for the recognition he has received for his commentary, emphasizing his enjoyment of the role and his commitment to providing engaging and informative commentary.

14. The Importance of Recognizing Fighters’ Potential

• Hackleman highlights his ability to spot potential in young fighters, highlighting the importance of recognizing raw talent and nurturing its development.
• He discusses the growth and evolution of fighters like TJ Dillishaw, showcasing how they refine their skills and develop their fighting styles over time.
• The podcast explores the importance of a supportive and challenging training environment in helping fighters realize their full potential.
• Hackleman emphasizes the joy and excitement he derives from witnessing fighters progress and achieve success, highlighting the rewarding nature of his role as a coach and mentor.

15. The Future of MMA

• Hackleman shares his optimistic outlook on the future of MMA, believing it will continue to grow in popularity and become a dominant force in the world of sports.
• He discusses the need for rule changes, advocating for the elimination of the 12-6 elbow rule and the legalization of kidney punches, arguing for a more realistic and exciting sport.
• Hackleman believes that the sport’s evolution and increased popularity will lead to a deeper understanding and appreciation of its intricacies and the dedication of its athletes.
• He encourages fans to embrace the sport’s evolution and the emergence of new fighters and techniques, recognizing the ongoing process of growth and innovation within MMA.

Memorable Quotes

• “I don’t like to see my guys get hurt. You know? And then it happened real bad. Oh, Fabio Maldonado. Was it that fight? Yes. So that was the second time.” – Hackleman shares the emotional impact of witnessing his fighters sustain serious injuries, reflecting his deep connection to his athletes.
• “I’ve always had that hardcore eye of the tiger, you know, run on the train tracks, be tough guy. You know, just he’s kinda, you know, a lot of it’s kinda outdated and stuff, but it seems to work for my guys.” – Hackleman embodies the old-school mentality, emphasizing the value of traditional training methods, even in a modern world of scientific approaches.
• “It’s a different kind of hard than, like, a Chuck Hard. Yeah. Would you starches all these guys with one shot, and you realize, like, these guys got hit, like, they’re gonna hit by a sniper. Boom. He hits him and they’re stiffening up. You don’t see that type of power with John.” – Hackleman describes the unique knockout power of fighters like Chuck Liddell, emphasizing its intensity and devastating impact.
• “I think that participating in this system where we allow people to to use animals as like a commodity in in such a way that they try to tighten up the bottom line so much that you you torture these things. You give them these horrible existences just in order to make to maximize your profits. I think that’s evil.” – Hackleman expresses his strong stance against factory farming, highlighting the ethical and moral implications of such practices.
• “I think it’s one of the lowest things. I think another low thing is SeaWorld. You know? Another low thing is this dolphin mask that they’re about to do. You see that shit? They have, like, 2 and the the place where they film that movie, the cove, they have trapped 250 dolphins in there now, and they’re gonna slaughter them, and everybody knows about it. There’s nothing anybody can do about it.” – Hackleman condemns the exploitation of animals, particularly the practice of capturing and killing dolphins for entertainment purposes, highlighting the ethical failings of such industries.