JRE #649 – Jonathan Gottschall

5/18/2015

Podcast Topic Breakdown: #649 – Jonathan Gottschall

This podcast features Jonathan Gottschall, a literary scholar specializing in literature and evolution, discussing his experience competing in mixed martial arts and the deeper implications for understanding human nature and masculinity. Provocative topics explore the nature of violence, the allure of combat sports, the training process, and the contrasting environments of academia and MMA. Underlying themes examine the pursuit of self-discovery, the complexities of human aggression, and the potential for personal transformation through challenging physical experiences.

1. From Academia to the Cage: A Personal Quest

• Jonathan Gottschall, a professor of English, felt a sense of envy and a desire for change, leading him to walk across the street and join a mixed martial arts gym.
• He saw MMA as an opportunity to confront his own limitations, challenge his perceived intellectual comfort zone, and possibly even commit “career suicide.”
• His journey involved a complete immersion in the world of combat sports, experiencing the physical and mental demands of training, sparring, and competing.
• He ultimately discovered a passion for the sport, finding camaraderie, challenge, and a sense of living a “headlong life” for a few hours each week.

2. Deconstructing the Stereotypes of Violence

• Gottschall initially viewed MMA through a lens of violence and savagery, but his experience dispelled these preconceived notions.
• He found that while MMA can be rough and bloody, it is not inherently about violence but rather about competition, discipline, and achieving a state of Zen-like focus.
• He argues that the sport’s intensity is often misunderstood, and that experiencing the physicality of a fight offers a unique perspective on the emotions and realities of combat.
• The podcast highlights the difference between violence as perceived by outsiders and the reality of controlled, disciplined violence within a martial arts context.

3. The Evolution of Martial Arts: From Karate to MMA

• Gottschall’s initial karate training was limited by a purist approach, leaving him unprepared for the realities of real fighting, particularly grappling and takedowns.
• He describes the transformative experience of discovering MMA and BJJ, realizing the limitations of his previous training and the need for a more comprehensive skill set.
• The podcast discusses the evolution of combat sports, from traditional martial arts to MMA, and how the UFC has revolutionized our understanding of what constitutes effective fighting.
• This evolution involves embracing a range of disciplines, including grappling, striking, and wrestling, creating a truly complex and challenging form of competition.

4. The Challenge of Training and Competition

• Gottschall highlights the intense nature of MMA training, emphasizing the delicate balance between pushing oneself to the limit and avoiding injury.
• He discusses the importance of sparring as a way to simulate fight conditions, but also the potential dangers of going too hard in the gym.
• He touches upon the pressure to perform in a sport where the stakes are high, the risk of injury is ever-present, and the line between competition and actual violence can blur.
• The podcast explores the psychological toll of preparing for and competing in MMA, and the sense of camaraderie and support that is vital to navigating the demanding environment.

5. The Allure and Dangers of Combat Sports

• Joe Rogan, as a longtime fan and commentator, expresses his love for the sport, recognizing the incredible skill, stamina, and emotional intensity required to compete at a high level.
• Gottschall, despite his own experiences, expresses concern over the physical and neurological damage that fighters can sustain, especially those who cut weight excessively.
• The podcast delves into the controversial topic of weight cutting, highlighting the dangers of dehydration and its impact on brain function, leading to increased risk of injury.
• Rogan and Gottschall discuss potential solutions, such as altering glove rules to reduce damage and improving the understanding of the neurological risks involved in combat sports.

6. The Ethics and Psychology of Combat Sports

• The podcast touches upon the ethical implications of combat sports, questioning the inherent violence and the potential for serious injury.
• Rogan and Gottschall acknowledge the contradictions of being fans of the sport while also recognizing its risks and the need for responsible training and safety practices.
• They discuss the pressure on fighters to push their limits and the need to promote a culture of respect and safety within the sport.
• The podcast explores the psychology of competition, highlighting the importance of mental toughness, resilience, and the ability to control one’s emotions under pressure.

7. Reframing Masculinity: The Monkey Dance

• Gottschall argues that the Monkey Dance, a concept he uses to describe ritualized forms of competition in humans and animals, offers a more nuanced understanding of masculinity.
• He suggests that while aggression and dominance are natural tendencies, they can be channeled through healthy forms of competition, such as sports.
• He challenges the concept of “toxic masculinity,” arguing that it can be detrimental to both men and women, and that embracing healthy forms of competition can lead to personal growth and self-discovery.
• The podcast explores the ways in which men can navigate the complexities of masculinity in a modern world, finding ways to express their strength and drive without resorting to harmful or destructive behaviors.

8. The Role of Strength and Character in Competition

• Gottschall emphasizes the importance of character and mental toughness in MMA, arguing that it is not just about physical strength and skill but also about the ability to endure pain and push beyond one’s limits.
• He highlights examples of fighters, like John Jones and Vitor Belfort, who have demonstrated resilience and determination in the face of adversity.
• The podcast explores the psychology of overcoming fear and doubt, and the role that mental training plays in achieving success in combat sports.
• It discusses the concept of “game-ness” in fighters, the willingness to step into the cage and face a challenge, regardless of the potential risks.

9. The Impact of Performance-Enhancing Drugs

• The podcast delves into the controversial topic of performance-enhancing drugs in MMA, discussing the ethical implications and the impact on athlete health and safety.
• Rogan and Gottschall debate the potential for PEDs to exacerbate the risks of combat sports, particularly the increased potential for injury and neurological damage.
• They acknowledge the complex issue of PEDs in sport, considering the pressures on athletes to achieve success, the lack of clear consensus on the dangers of certain substances, and the challenges of effective testing.
• The podcast explores the evolving landscape of PED testing and the ongoing debate about the appropriate role of these substances in competitive sports.

10. The Future of Combat Sports: Innovation and Evolution

• Gottschall and Rogan discuss the potential for innovation in combat sports, specifically proposing changes to glove rules and exploring alternative formats for competition.
• They discuss the limitations of the current UFC monopoly and the need for alternative organizations to push boundaries and challenge the status quo.
• They argue for the importance of safety improvements, proposing changes to weight cutting protocols and penalizing dangerous tactics, such as eye pokes.
• The podcast concludes with a hopeful vision for the future of combat sports, emphasizing the potential for evolution and greater safety while preserving the spirit of competition and athleticism.

5 Memorable Quotes:

• “You really don’t know anything about it unless you’ve done it. Unless you’ve gone over there and gotten into the cage and been sort of locked up inside there.” – Gottschall emphasizes the importance of personal experience in understanding the true nature of MMA.
• “It’s about all the time because guys, they get mad, they get hit, and they get mad. You know? And it’s like, don’t get mad. It ruins everything. You know, you don’t you make bad decisions.” – Gottschall highlights the importance of emotional control in MMA, emphasizing how anger can lead to poor decisions and strategies.
• “The biggest shock for me was that I loved it.” – Gottschall expresses his surprise at finding joy and fulfillment in a sport he initially perceived as terrifying and painful.
• “Men avoid conflict. They’re very fairly prudent about throwing their their their fist around. Most guys will go through great lengths to find a face saving way out of a violent confrontation.” – Gottschall challenges the stereotype of men as inherently violent, suggesting that men are often more cautious and peaceable than perceived.
• “The only reason why anybody gets laid is because Luke Rockhold didn’t get there first.” – Gottschall jokingly, yet insightfully, connects the concept of masculinity and athletic prowess to the evolutionary drive for reproduction.