4/5/2017
Joe Rogan Experience #942 – Dan Flores
This podcast features a captivating conversation with Dan Flores, a renowned writer and historian specializing in the cultural and environmental studies of the American West. The episode delves into Flores’s expertise, particularly his fascination with coyotes and their remarkable adaptability, as well as the complex relationship between humans and the American wilderness. The podcast touches on topics ranging from the evolution of coyotes and their unique characteristics to the historical impact of human activities on the West’s natural landscape, including the extinction of iconic creatures like mammoths and the reemergence of wild horses. Provocative discussions about the role of predators in the ecosystem, the controversial management of wild horse populations, and the ethical considerations of human intervention in nature are explored.
Key Topics:
- The Rise of the Coyote:
- Flores discusses the extraordinary spread of coyotes throughout North America, driven by their adaptability and resilience in the face of human attempts to eradicate them.
- He delves into the evolutionary history of coyotes, highlighting their relationship to wolves and their ability to hybridize with other wolf species.
- The podcast explores the impact of coyote populations on other species, such as white-tailed deer and the resurgence of songbirds in urban areas.
- The episode encourages listeners to understand the crucial role of coyotes in the ecosystem and to develop strategies for co-existence rather than elimination.
- The Mystery of the Extinct North American Horses:
- Flores examines the puzzling disappearance of horses from North America around 10,000 years ago, despite their previous dominance of the landscape.
- He explores various hypotheses, including the role of human hunting and the impact of climate change.
- The podcast discusses the reintroduction of horses to the American West by Europeans and their subsequent success in reinhabiting their original ecological niche.
- Flores delves into the ongoing debate surrounding wild horses as an invasive species, arguing that they are more accurately categorized as a reintroduced species.
- The American Serengeti:
- Flores describes the remarkable ecosystem of the American Great Plains, a once-thriving landscape teeming with bison, pronghorn, elk, and other iconic species.
- He recounts the near-complete destruction of this ecosystem through human activities, particularly the relentless hunting of bison and the introduction of exotic diseases.
- The podcast highlights the American Prairie Reserve, a conservation project dedicated to recreating the American Serengeti in central Montana.
- Flores discusses the challenges and potential benefits of this ambitious project, including the ongoing debate surrounding the reintroduction of wolves and grizzly bears to the area.
- Bison Diplomacy and Bison Ecology:
- Flores examines the long-standing relationship between Native American tribes and bison, emphasizing the profound cultural and ecological significance of these animals.
- He discusses the role of the European market in accelerating the decline of bison populations, highlighting the introduction of horses and firearms as significant factors.
- The podcast explores the intricate dynamics of Native American bison hunting practices, including the use of buffalo jumps and the traditional belief that bison were a people.
- Flores emphasizes the complex interplay of ecological factors, market forces, and cultural beliefs in shaping the fate of bison populations.
- The Coyote’s Place in Native American Mythology:
- Flores discusses the unique position of the coyote in Native American mythology, often depicted as a trickster figure embodying both positive and negative aspects of humanity.
- He explores the reasons for the coyote’s enduring presence in Native American folklore, highlighting its adaptability, intelligence, and role as a teacher.
- The podcast sheds light on the reverence with which coyotes were once regarded by Native American tribes, contrasting this perspective with the modern fear and animosity often directed toward these animals.
- Flores suggests that understanding the coyote’s symbolic significance in Native American culture can offer valuable insights into the complexities of human-animal relationships.
- The Role of Predators in Urban Environments:
- Flores addresses the increasing presence of coyotes in urban areas, particularly in Los Angeles, and the human reactions to their presence, including fear, anger, and a desire to eliminate them.
- He highlights the role of feral dogs in historical urban environments and how their suppression paved the way for coyotes to occupy these spaces.
- The podcast emphasizes the need for responsible coexistence with coyotes, emphasizing that attempts to eradicate them are often counterproductive and can lead to negative ecological consequences.
- Flores encourages listeners to view coyotes as part of the urban landscape and to develop strategies for sharing space with these adaptable creatures.
- The Impact of Human Activities on Predators:
- Flores discusses the historical use of poisons, particularly Strychnine and 1080, to control coyote populations and the unintended consequences of these efforts.
- He highlights the importance of understanding the cognitive abilities of coyotes, particularly their ability to learn from experience and avoid poisons.
- The podcast emphasizes the ethical considerations of using poisons to manage predator populations, highlighting the potential for harming non-target species and causing ecological disruption.
- Flores advocates for a more nuanced understanding of predator-prey dynamics and for prioritizing strategies that promote coexistence rather than eradication.
- The Role of Science in Understanding Wildlife:
- Flores discusses the ongoing scientific debate surrounding the evolutionary relationships between coyotes, wolves, and other canids.
- He emphasizes the importance of utilizing diverse data sources, including genetics, morphology, and the fossil record, to gain a comprehensive understanding of these relationships.
- The podcast acknowledges the limitations of science in reconstructing ancient events and the importance of embracing ongoing research and new discoveries.
- Flores encourages listeners to approach scientific information with a critical and inquisitive mind, recognizing that scientific understanding is constantly evolving.
Memorable Quotes:
- “Coyotes are distinctively North American animals. They come out of candidate evolution that began here 5.3 million years ago. So, yeah, they’re they’re small wolves.”
- “They didn’t become that smart and that adept at surviving anything almost that happens to them because of us. I mean, we’ve only been trying to wipe them out or control their populations for a little more than a century now. And that’s too short of time for them to evolve these abilities to to adapt and survive. They they evolved those abilities because they were the small dog in a big dog’s world.”
- “In Yellowstone, for example, one of the things we saw in that period when they weren’t being harassed in the sixties, seventies, eighties, is that they would have a litter of 5 or 6 pups and they could only get a couple of them to adulthood. But whenever you try to control their populations and momentarily suppress their populations. I mean, the result is that there’s more more food for coyotes out there the coyotes that that have survived. And that makes it possible for them to have a litter of 7 or 8 pups and get 6 to 7 of them to adulthood.”
- “The attempts to exterminate them, I mean, and I can explain how this why this happens has to do with their evolution and the particular adaptations they have. But the attempts to exterminate them or even to try to control their numbers almost always produces exactly the opposite effect. So Georgia is going to end up with more coyotes than they’ve ever had before in their efforts to try to suppress their population.”
- “If you could believe it’s explaining the relationship that the gray wolves had to the coyotes, which is one of the reasons that the coyotes became so adaptable. It’s true. I mean, they didn’t Coyote’s didn’t become so smart, you know. In in the Southwest, the Hispanics say, The only thing that’s smarter than a coyote has got. But they didn’t become that smart and that adept at surviving anything almost that happens to them because of us.”