JRE MMA Show #149 with Dan Henderson

This podcast features Joe Rogan in conversation with Dan Henderson, a retired mixed martial artist and Olympic wrestler. The discussion covers a wide range of topics, from Henderson’s career and retirement to his new book and insights into the evolution of MMA.

Provocative topics include Henderson’s experiences with TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) in the sport, the controversial use of performance-enhancing drugs, and the culture of short-notice fights in Pride FC.

Underlying themes in the podcast center around the physical and mental demands of combat sports, the complexities of navigating a rapidly evolving sport, and the enduring legacy of MMA pioneers.

1. Dan Henderson’s Retirement and Adaptation:
   • Henderson discusses his decision to retire from fighting and how he’s adapted to life after competing.
   • He talks about his lack of desire to return to fighting, but acknowledges a few matchups that would have piqued his interest.
   • Henderson emphasizes that he felt ready for retirement, both physically and mentally, and was content with his accomplishments.
   • The conversation touches on the difficulties many fighters face in resisting the urge to come back to the sport, even after retirement.
2. The Rise of Bare Knuckle Boxing and MMA:
   • Rogan and Henderson discuss the increasing popularity of bare knuckle fighting and how it differs from traditional boxing and MMA.
   • They explore the potential advantages and disadvantages of bare knuckle combat, including the impact on striking technique and grappling strategies.
   • The discussion touches on the realism of bare knuckle fighting and how it contrasts with the protective nature of gloves in traditional MMA.
   • They highlight the success of fighters like Mike Perry in transitioning to the bare knuckle scene and the growing appeal of bare knuckle MMA as a sport.
3. Dan Henderson’s Early MMA Career and Training:
   • Henderson shares anecdotes from his early MMA days, including his first fight with no prior sparring experience.
   • He describes the lack of dedicated MMA coaches and training protocols in the early days of the sport, highlighting how fighters had to figure things out on their own.
   • The conversation underscores the importance of learning and adapting to the unique demands of MMA compared to wrestling, specifically in terms of pacing and striking technique.
   • Henderson discusses the development of MMA training camps and the shift towards more specialized coaching and training regimens, a stark contrast to the early days of the sport.
4. The “Hendo” Power and Striking Technique:
   • Henderson and Rogan discuss the origins of Henderson’s exceptional punching power, which surprised many considering his wrestling background.
   • They explore the connection between athletic backgrounds like baseball pitching and the development of striking power in MMA.
   • Henderson acknowledges that while raw power might be innate, refining technique and mechanics is essential for maximizing impact.
   • The conversation emphasizes the unpredictable nature of punching power in MMA, with some fighters possessing remarkable power despite seemingly average physiques.
5. MMA’s Evolution and the Early Days:
   • Rogan and Henderson reflect on the significant evolution of MMA from its early days, emphasizing the sport’s growth in skill and athleticism.
   • They compare the level of competition in early events like UFC 17 to the high-level matchups seen in modern events, highlighting the remarkable progress.
   • The conversation acknowledges the cultural and social challenges faced by MMA in its early years, including controversies surrounding its safety and legitimacy.
   • Henderson and Rogan discuss the importance of the early pioneers in shaping MMA’s trajectory, overcoming skepticism and establishing the sport’s foundation.
6. Short-Notice Fights and the Pride FC Era:
   • Henderson and Rogan discuss the common practice of short-notice fights in Pride FC, contrasting it with the more structured fight booking in modern MMA.
   • Henderson shares a remarkable story of fighting just two and a half months after an ACL reconstruction, highlighting the grit and determination of fighters in that era.
   • The conversation touches on the financial incentives and pressures that often led fighters to take short-notice bouts, even under challenging circumstances.
   • Henderson and Rogan express appreciation for the intense and chaotic nature of Pride FC, showcasing the willingness of fighters to engage in brutal, high-stakes battles.
7. Round Length and Its Impact on Fighting Styles:
   • Rogan and Henderson discuss the merits of 10-minute rounds, as seen in Pride FC, arguing that it separated elite fighters from those less prepared.
   • They explore how longer rounds can benefit grapplers by giving them more time to control opponents, while challenging strikers to maintain their pace and strategy.
   • The discussion considers the potential for longer rounds in championship fights, potentially resulting in more strategic and unpredictable encounters.
   • Henderson and Rogan agree that a longer round format might lead to a greater focus on pacing and conditioning, making the fights more tactical and demanding.
8. The Impact of TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy):
   • Rogan and Henderson discuss the controversial history of TRT exemptions in MMA, with Henderson being one of the first fighters to receive an exemption.
   • They explore the motivations behind TRT usage in the sport, including the pursuit of performance enhancement and recovery from the rigors of training.
   • Henderson acknowledges that he wasn’t taking high doses of TRT, but expresses frustration with the subsequent abuse of the exemption by other fighters.
   • The discussion delves into the transparency and ethical considerations surrounding TRT use, highlighting the need for robust testing and regulation in combat sports.
9. Training Methods and Sparring Frequency:
   • Rogan and Henderson discuss the different schools of thought regarding sparring frequency in MMA, highlighting the contrasting approaches of fighters like Sean Strickland and Max Holloway.
   • Henderson shares his own training philosophy, emphasizing the importance of incorporating a variety of training methods, including hard sparring days and technical sparring sessions.
   • They explore the challenges of training fighters to punch fast without hitting hard, highlighting the need for effective communication and guidance.
   • The discussion acknowledges the individuality of athletes and the need to adapt training plans based on specific skill sets and recovery needs.
10. Dan Henderson’s Toughest Fight:
    • Henderson discusses his toughest fight experience, which occurred during a 32-man unlimited weight class tournament, where he fought five times in a single night.
    • He shares the grueling details of the tournament, including injuries sustained during the fights and the financial incentives that motivated him.
    • Henderson recounts the challenges of fighting with injuries, specifically a popped MCL sustained during the tournament, demonstrating his resilience.
    • The conversation emphasizes the unique and demanding nature of tournaments in MMA, where fighters endure multiple bouts in a short timeframe.
11. The Rise and Fall of Pride FC:
    • Rogan and Henderson reminisce about the golden age of Pride FC in Japan, acknowledging its immense popularity and impact on the global MMA scene.
    • They discuss the reasons for Pride’s decline, including a legal battle with K-1 and the eventual purchase of the organization by the UFC.
    • Henderson and Rogan express admiration for the unique cultural elements of Pride FC, including its elaborate pre-fight ceremonies and dramatic walk-outs.
    • The conversation highlights the legacy of Pride FC and its contribution to the evolution and expansion of MMA, particularly in its influence on fighters and fans worldwide.
12. The Impact of “The American Athlete” Nickname:
    • Henderson explains the origin of his “American Athlete” nickname, which was bestowed upon him by Japanese media during his Pride FC days.
    • He discusses the significance of the nickname, reflecting his wrestling background, work ethic, and dedication to the sport.
    • Henderson shares that he embraced the nickname and how it resonated with him as a representative of American athletics.
    • The conversation connects the nickname to the themes of national pride, athleticism, and Henderson’s personal journey in combat sports.
13. The State of the UFC and MMA Organizations:
    • Rogan and Henderson discuss the current state of the UFC and the growing competition from other MMA organizations like the PFL and Bellator.
    • They explore the benefits of a more competitive landscape for fighters, allowing them to negotiate better contracts and gain more bargaining power.
    • The conversation touches on the UFC’s acquisition of Pride FC and Strike Force, highlighting the company’s strategic moves in shaping the industry.
    • Henderson and Rogan express their hopes that a more competitive MMA landscape will lead to more opportunities for fighters and overall growth of the sport.
14. The Impact of Politics and Media on Society:
    • Rogan and Henderson discuss their concerns about the current political climate and the role of media in polarizing society.
    • They express skepticism about mainstream media outlets and their tendency towards sensationalism and bias, questioning the objectivity of news reporting.
    • The conversation touches on the challenges of finding reliable and trustworthy sources of information in a fragmented media landscape.
    • Henderson and Rogan emphasize the importance of critical thinking and questioning narratives, highlighting the need for a more informed and balanced approach to consuming news.
15. The Homeless Crisis and Societal Challenges:
    • Rogan and Henderson discuss the ongoing homelessness crisis in many cities and the complexities of addressing the issue.
    • They criticize the inefficiency of government programs and the lack of incentives to effectively address the root causes of homelessness.
    • The conversation highlights the role of mental illness and drug addiction in contributing to homelessness, emphasizing the need for comprehensive solutions.
    • Henderson and Rogan express their concerns about the growing political divisions and social unrest in society, questioning the ability of current systems to effectively address these issues.
16. The Future of MMA:
    • Rogan and Henderson speculate on the future of MMA, considering the ongoing evolution of the sport and the impact of new organizations and fighters.
    • They discuss the potential for more tournaments and the integration of different martial arts disciplines, enhancing the sport’s variety and excitement.
    • The conversation touches on the potential for MMA to further expand globally, reaching new audiences and attracting a wider range of fighters.
    • Henderson and Rogan express their belief that MMA will continue to grow and evolve, driven by the passion of fans and athletes, and the continued pursuit of innovation and skill development.

5 Memorable Quotes:

• “A lot of guys who, they leave fighting and the excitement and the intensity of fighting, nothing can match that, and so the only thing that comes close for a lot of them is bow hunting.” – Henderson highlights the adrenaline rush and mental focus required for both activities.
• “My friend Cam shot one at two yards. He shot at two yards, a frontal shot at two yards, made it, just made a video of it. It’s fucking crazy.” – Rogan shares a humorous story of a close-range elk hunt, underscoring the thrill of the hunt.
• “It’s a great discipline for fighters. It’s also the most crazy, they’re screaming, and there’s so much chaos, and you gotta duck those cows and sneak around, it’s fun, I love it.” – Henderson describes the unique challenges and excitement of bow hunting.
• “I’ve never taken that shot, I had an opportunity to do that shot last week at 45 yards, but there was some shit in the way of them, and I don’t like that shot. Yeah, not at that distance.” – Henderson shares his hunting ethics and preference for clean, ethical shots.
• “It’s just interesting to see how effective it is, too. Like Mike Perry has done an amazing job transitioning into Bear Knuckle, like, he’s probably the most successful at it, definitely the most successful at it from MMA guys.” – Rogan points out the success of fighters in transitioning to the bare knuckle scene.