JRE #524 – Rickson Gracie & Eddie Bravo

This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience brings together two legends of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Rickson Gracie, an 8th-degree black belt and retired mixed martial artist, and Eddie Bravo, a black belt, music producer, and podcaster. Together they delve into the world of Jiu-Jitsu, exploring its history, philosophy, and evolution, particularly highlighting the controversial topic of leg locks and their place in the sport. Underpinning the discussion are themes of mental discipline, the importance of embracing new techniques, and the future direction of Jiu-Jitsu as a competitive sport and self-defense art.

Major Topics

1. Rickson Gracie’s Unique Approach to Fighting

• Rickson emphasizes mental discipline and meditation alongside physical training. He credits his practice of yoga and achieving an “empty mind” state for his success in Jiu-Jitsu.
• His philosophy is rooted in a samurai-like mindset, focusing on being present in the moment, avoiding expectations, and reacting to his opponent’s actions rather than predicting them.
• He believes his commitment to this mental state, combined with his technical prowess, gave him a significant edge over his opponents, allowing him to stay calm and focused even under immense pressure.
• His approach to training and competing is significantly different from the more traditional wrestling-focused mindset common in MMA, highlighting the importance of incorporating mental practices alongside physical training.

2. The Evolution of Leg Locks in Jiu-Jitsu

• Rickson discusses how leg locks, particularly heel hooks, were initially frowned upon and even considered dangerous in Jiu-Jitsu.
• He credits his cousin, Hélio Gracie, with introducing leg locks to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, though he ultimately learned more about them from Eric Paulson and a Shoto wrestling tape.
• He argues that the IBJJF’s ban on heel hooks in lower-level competitions is necessary to protect athletes from serious injury, but believes they should be allowed in professional tournaments where athletes are more experienced and responsible.
• This discussion highlights the ongoing debate surrounding the role of leg locks in Jiu-Jitsu, balancing the risk of injury with the potential for exciting and effective submissions.

3. The Rise of Rickson Gracie as a Jiu-Jitsu Legend

• Rickson was always considered the most skilled Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in the Gracie family, despite growing up surrounded by other talented fighters.
• He attributes this success to his natural talent, dedication to perfection, and strong mental discipline, allowing him to remain calm and focused even in high-pressure situations.
• His accomplishments include defeating numerous top fighters in Vale Tudo events, earning a reputation as a nearly unbeatable competitor, and inspiring a generation of Jiu-Jitsu practitioners.
• This discussion explores the factors that contributed to Rickson’s rise to legendary status, highlighting the importance of talent, dedication, and a unique approach to the sport.

4. Rickson Gracie’s Decision to Not Compete in the UFC

• Rickson initially supported his brother, Royce, by coaching him in early UFC events, but ultimately chose to pursue his own career path.
• He declined to compete in the UFC due to disagreements over rules, compensation, and his desire to stay true to his own fighting philosophy.
• He instead focused on competing in Japan, where he found a more welcoming environment and a more fitting stage for his style of fighting.
• This discussion provides insight into the complex dynamics of the early MMA world, highlighting the different paths chosen by members of the Gracie family and the factors that influenced their decisions.

5. Rickson Gracie’s Thoughts on the Current State of Jiu-Jitsu

• Rickson expresses concern over the direction of Jiu-Jitsu, believing that the emphasis on points and advantages in modern competitions has led to a decline in the sport’s effectiveness and dynamism.
• He criticizes the current point system as confusing and ineffective, arguing that it encourages fighters to prioritize control and stalling rather than aggressive submissions.
• He proposes the Jujitsu Global Federation (JJGF) as a solution, aimed at unifying the community, restoring the focus on submission-oriented fighting, and providing better resources for instructors and academies.
• This discussion highlights the ongoing debate about the direction of Jiu-Jitsu, balancing the needs of competitive athletes with the desire to preserve the sport’s roots in self-defense and dynamic fighting.

6. Rickson Gracie’s Vision for the Future of Jiu-Jitsu

• Rickson envisions a unified Jiu-Jitsu community, with a standardized set of rules focused on promoting aggressive, submission-oriented fighting.
• He believes the JJGF can help establish a worldwide circuit, attracting major sponsors, television coverage, and creating a more professional and sustainable environment for the sport.
• He also emphasizes the importance of education and certification, ensuring that Jiu-Jitsu instructors are properly trained to teach both self-defense and competitive fighting.
• This discussion outlines Rickson’s ambitious plan for the future of Jiu-Jitsu, aimed at revitalizing the sport and promoting its growth both as a competitive art and as a valuable self-defense tool.

7. The Importance of the Overhook in MMA

• Eddie Bravo expresses his belief that the overhook is a crucial element in the guard, arguing that it provides both defensive and offensive advantages in MMA.
• He highlights the example of Jean Jacques Machado, a Jiu-Jitsu legend who developed a unique overhook-based game, and how his approach was successful in early Abu Dhabi tournaments.
• Bravo emphasizes the importance of mastering the overhook not just for defense but for generating sweeps, triangles, and other submissions from the guard.
• This discussion underscores the importance of specific techniques and the potential for unique approaches to dominate in MMA, highlighting the strategic value of the overhook.

8. The Phenomenon of Ronda Rousey

• Rickson and Eddie discuss Rhonda Rousey’s dominant armbar technique, arguing that her mastery of this submission stems from her extensive training in Judo.
• Rickson highlights the importance of dedication and specialization in a single technique, pointing out that Rousey’s success comes from a lifetime of commitment to Judo, allowing her to develop a nearly unstoppable armbar.
• Eddie emphasizes that the effectiveness of her armbar stems from her aggressive approach, her willingness to go for the submission immediately, and her ability to react quickly and decisively.
• This discussion highlights the importance of athleticism, dedication, and a unique skillset in the success of fighters like Ronda Rousey, showing how specialization can lead to dominance in the sport.

9. The Challenge of Jiu-Jitsu in MMA

• Rickson and Eddie discuss the difficulties faced by Jiu-Jitsu practitioners when transitioning to MMA, particularly when facing wrestlers who are difficult to take down.
• Rickson emphasizes the importance of developing a strong guard game, particularly a “Volletudo guard” that incorporates striking and submissions from the bottom, to effectively counter wrestlers in MMA.
• He believes that Jiu-Jitsu fighters who rely solely on a “supportive guard” are at a disadvantage against wrestlers, as they become vulnerable to ground and pound.
• This discussion highlights the unique challenges of adapting a skillset developed in Jiu-Jitsu to the more complex and demanding environment of MMA.

10. The Importance of Continuous Growth and Innovation in Jiu-Jitsu

• Rickson stresses the importance of an open mind, constantly learning and adapting to new techniques and approaches to Jiu-Jitsu.
• He highlights how the sport has evolved over time, with new submissions like the Darce choke becoming commonplace, underscoring the importance of embracing innovation and rejecting outdated ideas.
• He believes that the success of Jiu-Jitsu relies on its ability to adapt and evolve, incorporating new techniques and strategies while staying true to its core principles.
• This discussion showcases the dynamic nature of Jiu-Jitsu, emphasizing the importance of staying relevant and constantly improving to maintain the art’s effectiveness.

11. The “Invisible Jiu-Jitsu”

• Rickson highlights the importance of “invisible Jiu-Jitsu,” the subtle and nuanced aspects of the sport that are often overlooked.
• He emphasizes that Jiu-Jitsu is not just about techniques but about the feeling, the leverage, the weight distribution, and the understanding of how those elements work together.
• He believes that mastering the “invisible Jiu-Jitsu” allows practitioners to develop a deeper understanding of the art, enhancing their ability to adapt and find success in different situations.
• This discussion underscores the importance of developing a deep and nuanced understanding of the art, going beyond the superficial to truly master the principles of Jiu-Jitsu.

12. The “Yoshi Anjo” Incident

• Rickson recounts the story of Yoshi Anjo, a professional wrestler, who challenged Rickson to a fight in Japan. Rickson declined to fight on Anjo’s stage, believing the event was rigged, but offered to fight him in a fair match.
• Anjo eventually showed up at Rickson’s dojo, attempting to instigate a fight, but Rickson quickly subdued him and put him to sleep.
• This incident garnered significant publicity for Rickson, cementing his reputation as a formidable fighter and furthering his popularity in Japan.
• This discussion provides a glimpse into the often-unconventional world of early MMA, highlighting the confrontations, rivalries, and personal clashes that shaped the sport.

13. The Role of Cannabis in MMA

• Rickson and Eddie discuss the controversy surrounding the use of cannabis in MMA, highlighting the varying opinions and legal frameworks surrounding the drug.
• Rickson acknowledges the medicinal benefits of cannabis, but believes that athletes should adhere to the current rules regarding banned substances, particularly those that have been proven to enhance performance.
• Eddie questions the rationale behind banning cannabis, arguing that it’s not a performance enhancer and its effects can actually be detrimental to athletic performance.
• This discussion reflects the ongoing debate surrounding the use of cannabis in sports, balancing ethical considerations, performance enhancement, and the changing legal landscape.

14. The Importance of Surfing in Rickson’s Life

• Rickson expresses his love for surfing, describing it as a way to connect with the ocean’s energy and find balance in his life.
• He believes that surfing helps him stay grounded, focused, and emotionally balanced, qualities that are essential to his approach to Jiu-Jitsu and his overall philosophy.
• While he acknowledges that surfing and Jiu-Jitsu share some similarities in terms of balance and athleticism, he emphasizes that surfing provides a unique opportunity to connect with nature and find inner peace.
• This discussion highlights the importance of finding balance and maintaining a holistic approach to life, showing how seemingly disparate activities can complement and enrich one another.

15. Rickson Gracie’s Philosophy on Life

• Rickson emphasizes the importance of living life to the fullest, following your heart, and pursuing your passions.
• He encourages viewers to avoid conformity and to embrace challenges, seeing them as opportunities for growth and self-discovery.
• He believes that the greatest enemy is fear, and that true courage lies in taking risks, breaking boundaries, and pursuing your dreams with unwavering determination.
• This discussion reveals Rickson’s inspirational and empowering outlook on life, encouraging listeners to live authentically, take risks, and pursue their goals with passion.

5 Memorable Quotes

• “By doing that kind of routine, I was able to not just breathe properly, but also achieve empty mind. And I was like in a state a meditations state. for a long time, like, not concentrating in anything like rational, oh, he’s there or he’s so I was able to get achieve, like, I empty mine.” – Rickson Gracie describes how his unique breathing and movement routine helped him achieve a state of “empty mind,” enhancing his focus and intuition.
• “If you try to be surprised me, I will be there accordingly defending myself. So it’s all on the table. It’s like no surprises because it’s no expectations.” – Rickson highlights the importance of being present and reacting to the opponent’s actions rather than predicting them, a core aspect of his fighting philosophy.
• “The biggest problem today in the shih tzu community is losing effectiveness. we’ve been losing effectiveness drastically from the last 15 years because the way in order for us to restore effectiveness, I felt very appealing to me to engage in this venture.” – Rickson expresses his concern about the decline in effectiveness within the Jiu-Jitsu community, motivating him to create the JJGF to address these issues.
• “In my perspective, for example, Chrome, he’s been training to deal with tough wrestling, tough boxing, but he don’t try to apply wrestling against wrestling. Because he gonna need another life to become like a shoots or like a Matt Hughes or like some other tough.” – Rickson emphasizes the importance of leveraging Jiu-Jitsu strengths, explaining why his son, Kron, prioritizes pulling guard in MMA instead of trying to outwrestle wrestlers.
• “It’s about how I feel, how I feed my kids, how I follow my tradition, So in engagement, I’m not gonna be the one who gonna quit. Did I have to kill me? My brother, he can throw the towel. but for me is unacceptable. You know, I give up from my life.” – Rickson shares his unwavering commitment to never giving up, highlighting the importance of personal values and tradition in driving his passion and ambition.