JRE #541 – Mike Baker

This episode of the Joe Rogan Experience features Mike Baker, a former CIA covert operations officer, who now heads Diligence LLC, a global intelligence and security firm. Baker takes listeners behind the curtain of the CIA, discussing its inner workings, common misconceptions, and controversial operations. Topics range from the Kennedy assassination and the CIA’s alleged involvement in drug trafficking to the realities of secrecy and the ethical dilemmas faced by intelligence agencies. Underlying themes explore the complexities of espionage, the allure of conspiracy theories, and the ever-present tension between national security and individual freedoms.

Podcast Topics:

1. The CIA and Its Misconceptions:

• Baker debunks the common conspiracy that the CIA is part of a one-world government, emphasizing its apolitical nature and its focus on serving the U.S. government regardless of political affiliation.
• He addresses the romanticized image of the CIA, portrayed in movies and TV shows, highlighting the reality that it’s a complex organization with a diverse group of individuals who are not all “hot chicks.”
• Baker underscores the importance of secrecy and the need to protect sources and methods, explaining why the CIA attracts conspiracy theories due to its lack of transparency.
• He argues that the CIA’s apolitical stance is a strength, contrasting it with other intel communities that are heavily influenced by political changes, potentially leading to instability and manipulation.

2. The Kennedy Assassination:

• Baker explores the enduring conspiracy theory that the CIA was involved in JFK’s assassination, discussing how the lack of transparency and the human tendency towards conspiracy theories fuels speculation.
• He presents a nuanced view of Lee Harvey Oswald, arguing that while Oswald may have acted alone, he was not necessarily a lone wolf but potentially motivated by a desire to join the Cuban Revolution and impress Fidel Castro.
• Baker critiques the single bullet theory, highlighting the inconsistencies and the lack of evidence to support the notion that one bullet could have caused all the wounds inflicted on JFK and Governor Connally.
• He emphasizes the importance of examining the evidence and considering alternative interpretations rather than relying solely on black-and-white narratives when dealing with complex historical events.

3. Interagency Relations and Turf Wars:

• Baker reveals the historical tension and competition between the CIA and the FBI, particularly when both agencies were involved in overseas operations.
• He emphasizes the historical reluctance of both agencies to fully share information and the competition for credit and control over investigations.
• He acknowledges that while the relationship has improved, the inherent nature of their work, with overlapping jurisdictions and different focuses, will likely continue to fuel tensions and create potential for conflict.
• Baker highlights the inherent human nature that fuels these interagency rivalries, including professional pride, competition for resources, and the desire to be seen as the most effective agency.

4. The CIA and Drugs:

• Baker vehemently denies the conspiracy theory that the CIA was involved in selling drugs in African American communities to fund foreign wars.
• He draws on his personal experience within the CIA, emphasizing the stringent restrictions placed on covert operations and the limited resources available to the agency, making such a conspiracy implausible.
• Baker acknowledges that individual CIA operatives may have engaged in illegal activities, but he insists that these were not sanctioned or condoned by the agency itself.
• He recognizes the power of these conspiracy theories to take on a life of their own, regardless of evidence, highlighting the challenge of dismantling long-held beliefs and the difficulty of proving a negative.

5. The Ethics and Dilemmas of Secrecy:

• Baker discusses the delicate balance between national security and individual freedoms, highlighting the necessity for secrecy in certain covert operations but acknowledging the potential for abuse.
• He explores the impact of public leaks on sensitive information, emphasizing the potential consequences for individuals in the field and the potential compromise of ongoing operations.
• Baker discusses the “Glomar response,” a tactic used by the CIA to neither confirm nor deny the existence of classified information, highlighting the challenges of balancing transparency with the need to protect secrets.
• He critiques the actions of whistleblowers like Edward Snowden, acknowledging the importance of oversight but questioning the methods and the potential consequences of exposing sensitive information.

6. The Future of Intelligence and National Security:

• Baker expresses concern about the erosion of American ideals and the belief in America’s ability to do great things, highlighting the importance of maintaining a strong national identity and purpose.
• He criticizes the cancellation of the space shuttle program, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a strong space program as a symbol of American innovation and technological prowess.
• Baker emphasizes the importance of strong leadership and a consistent foreign policy message to minimize chaos and maintain stability in a world marked by power struggles and shifting alliances.
• He highlights the urgent need to address the threat posed by ISIS and other extremist groups, calling for a more proactive and decisive approach to counterterrorism.

7. The Role of Money in Politics:

• Baker expresses deep concern about the influence of money in politics, arguing that it undermines the ability of elected officials to serve the best interests of their constituents.
• He advocates for term limits and campaign finance reform, arguing that they would help reduce the influence of corporations and special interests on government decisions.
• He criticizes the constant fundraising demands placed on elected officials, arguing that it detracts from their ability to focus on their jobs and serves to further entrench the power of wealthy donors.
• He emphasizes the importance of fresh perspectives and a more representative government, arguing that term limits would help ensure that a wider range of individuals have the opportunity to serve.

8. The Changing Nature of Espionage:

• Baker acknowledges the growing difficulty of maintaining secrecy in an age of widespread information sharing and online communication.
• He discusses the challenges of protecting sources in an era when journalists are increasingly compelled to disclose their sources under legal pressure.
• He expresses concern about the erosion of trust and the increasing willingness of individuals to leak classified information, highlighting the potential impact on national security.
• He discusses the blurring lines between espionage and other forms of information gathering, pointing to the increasing sophistication of surveillance technologies used by both governments and private companies.

9. The Importance of Human Nature:

• Baker underscores the importance of understanding human nature, both in the context of national security and in everyday life.
• He acknowledges the potential for both good and evil within individuals, emphasizing the need for vigilance and a strong moral compass.
• He discusses the dangers of desperation and the potential for chaos and violence when basic needs like food, water, and security are threatened.
• He highlights the importance of maintaining a strong national identity and a belief in the American Dream, emphasizing the importance of preserving the values of hard work, opportunity, and self-reliance.

10. Area 51 and the Mystery of UFOs:

• Baker shares his experience with Area 51, acknowledging its fascinating history and the secrecy surrounding it but dispelling the myth of alien holding tanks.
• He discusses the historical development of advanced aircraft and surveillance technologies, explaining why some sightings might be mistaken for UFOs.
• He highlights the human tendency to misinterpret unusual phenomena and the power of belief in fueling conspiracy theories.
• He acknowledges the enduring fascination with UFOs and the role of media in perpetuating these narratives.

5 Memorable Quotes:

• “The agency is an incredibly apolitical organization. Doesn’t matter who’s in charge in the White House. you get your task and you march on.” – Baker emphasizes the CIA’s dedication to serving the U.S. government regardless of political changes.
• “People like conspiracy theories anyway. They’re funny. They’re funny. Yeah. What’s not to like?” – Baker acknowledges the human fascination with conspiracy theories, even while recognizing their potential for harm.
• “The agency is always it’s sort of ground 0 for people’s conspiracies.” – Baker highlights the CIA’s role as a target for conspiracy theories due to its secrecy and its involvement in sensitive operations.
• “I honestly believe that now. Here’s the other part that’s a bit of a wildcard. The the the the the Cuban Intel service had a file, a massive file on him.” – Baker presents a complex and nuanced view of Lee Harvey Oswald, suggesting that he may have been influenced by the Cuban intelligence service.
• “People can’t keep their yap shut.” – Baker expresses frustration with the tendency of individuals to leak sensitive information, acknowledging the difficulty of maintaining secrecy in the digital age.