JRE #765 - Tovar Cerulli

2/24/2016

#765 – Tovar Cerulli

This podcast delves into Tovar Cerulli’s journey from veganism to mindful carnivore, exploring his unique path, motivations, and the complexities of ethical food choices. Provocative topics include the ethical dilemmas of animal welfare, the impact of agriculture on the environment, and the hidden realities of where our food comes from. Underlying themes explore the limitations of black and white thinking, the importance of personal experience and direct connection to nature, and the need for a more nuanced understanding of our relationship with the natural world.

1. Tovar’s Journey from Veganism to Hunting:

Tovar transitioned from vegetarianism to veganism in his 20s, motivated by ethical concerns for animal welfare and environmental issues.
His shift toward a carnivorous diet began with the realization that even vegan choices have environmental impacts, like the soy fields used for tofu production.
The nutritional needs of his body, coupled with his rural lifestyle in Vermont, led him to incorporate eggs, fish, and chicken into his diet.
This dietary change naturally progressed toward hunting, which he viewed as a more direct and ethical way to consume animal protein, given the natural process of death in the wild.

2. The Ethics and Realities of Hunting:

Tovar emphasizes the ethical imperative of a “clean kill” in hunting, ensuring minimal suffering and a quick death for the animal.
He highlights the importance of respecting the animal’s life by using it fully, including its meat, hide, and even skull, as a reminder of the connection to nature.
Tovar acknowledges that the ethical arguments for hunting resonate with many people, particularly those seeking a more direct and sustainable source of food.
He argues that while hunting might not be practical for the entire population, it offers a valuable experience of reconnecting with nature and understanding the origins of our food.

3. The Disconnect from Food and the “Agent of Forgetfulness”:

Tovar believes that our modern society, characterized by supermarkets and industrialized food production, has created a disconnect from the origins and impact of our food choices.
He cites author Richard Nelson’s concept of the supermarket as an “agent of forgetfulness,” where we lose sight of the realities of food production and the life cycles of animals.
Tovar argues that this disconnect fosters a tendency toward black and white thinking, where veganism becomes a symbol of moral purity, while hunting is perceived as inherently cruel.
He encourages a more nuanced understanding of the complexities of food production and the interconnectedness of all life, regardless of dietary choices.

4. The Significance of Primal Connections and Reward Systems:

Tovar suggests that there are primal reward systems within us that are deeply connected to activities like hunting, gardening, and gathering our own food.
He believes these systems are remnants of our evolutionary history, where obtaining food was a fundamental act of survival and success.
This sense of primal satisfaction, often experienced as a sense of exhilaration or “altered state,” can be deeply rewarding and meaningful.
Tovar argues that these experiences are not just about the food itself, but about reconnecting with our natural instincts and acknowledging our place within the web of life.

5. The Role of Women in Hunting:

Tovar discusses the cultural perception of women as hunters, often viewed as jarring or even offensive, despite the historical presence of women as hunters in many cultures.
He highlights the sexism inherent in this perception, where women are typically cast in nurturing roles, while hunting is seen as a masculine pursuit.
Tovar argues for a more nuanced and inclusive understanding of women’s roles in hunting, recognizing their capacity for both giving and taking life.
He encourages a shift in perspective that celebrates women’s strength and agency in the world, breaking down traditional gender roles and embracing the full spectrum of human experience.

6. The Controversial Nature of “Trophy Hunting” and its Ethical Implications:

Tovar tackles the controversial topic of “trophy hunting,” where animals are hunted primarily for their parts, often with little regard for using the meat.
He acknowledges that the practice raises ethical concerns about respecting life and using animals responsibly.
He highlights the potential for trophy hunting to perpetuate a distorted view of hunting, emphasizing the act of killing over the connection to nature and food.
Tovar advocates for a more ethical and transparent approach to hunting, focusing on the value of the animal’s life, the importance of using it fully, and the significance of respectful relationships with the natural world.

7. The Importance of Understanding Animal Intelligence and Emotions:

Tovar emphasizes the growing scientific understanding of animal intelligence and emotional capabilities, challenging the traditional perception of animals as simply “lower” creatures.
He recognizes the moral complexity of hunting in light of this emerging knowledge, highlighting the importance of acknowledging the suffering and emotions of animals.
Tovar advocates for a more compassionate approach to our interactions with animals, recognizing their capacity for complex emotions, including grief, mourning, and even love.
He emphasizes the need to move beyond simplistic notions of good and bad, recognizing the inherent complexity and gray areas within both hunting and animal welfare issues.

8. The Challenges and Complexities of Predator Management:

Tovar explores the delicate balance of predator and prey populations, particularly in ecosystems where human activity has disrupted natural cycles.
He examines the role of hunting in managing predator populations, highlighting the need for responsible practices to maintain ecological balance and prevent overpopulation of certain species.
He addresses the complexities of decision-making, where economic factors like tourism and conservation efforts must be weighed against ethical considerations of animal welfare.
Tovar encourages a nuanced understanding of the interconnectedness of ecosystems and the importance of informed decision-making when it comes to managing predator populations.

9. The Impact of Overpopulation and Diseases in Wildlife:

Tovar discusses the challenges posed by overpopulation of certain species, particularly deer, which can lead to habitat destruction, disease outbreaks, and even human health concerns.
He explores the impact of Lyme disease, a serious illness transmitted through deer ticks, and the growing prevalence in areas with high deer populations.
Tovar highlights the complexities of managing overpopulation, where responsible hunting practices can play a role in maintaining ecological balance and reducing the risk of diseases.
He emphasizes the need for proactive measures to address the potential consequences of overpopulation, ensuring the health of both wildlife and human populations.

10. The “Captive Deer Hunting” Industry and its Ethical Concerns:

Tovar delves into the controversial “captive deer hunting” industry, where deer are bred specifically for their antlers, creating an unnatural and often unethical environment.
He highlights the potential for disease transmission between captive and wild populations, raising concerns about the integrity of wildlife ecosystems.
Tovar questions the ethicality of breeding animals solely for their parts, particularly when it disrupts natural selection and creates potentially unhealthy populations.
He encourages a critical examination of the motives and practices within the captive deer hunting industry, advocating for a more sustainable and ethical approach to hunting.

11. The Role of Technology and the “Cyborg Future”:

Tovar explores the potential for technology to further disconnect us from nature, creating a “cyborg future” where we become increasingly reliant on artificial environments and virtual experiences.
He acknowledges the benefits of technology, particularly in advancing communication and innovation, but cautions against losing sight of our essential connection to the natural world.
Tovar argues that preserving access to natural experiences, like hunting, gardening, and simply spending time outdoors, is crucial for maintaining our mental, physical, and emotional well-being.
He believes that finding a balance between technological advancement and our primal connection to nature is essential for creating a healthy and fulfilling future.

12. The Power of Storytelling and Shared Experiences:

Tovar emphasizes the importance of storytelling and sharing experiences, particularly in bridging divides between different communities and perspectives.
He highlights the power of personal narratives to humanize complex issues like hunting, offering insights into the motivations, experiences, and emotions of those involved.
Tovar believes that by listening to and understanding different perspectives, we can move beyond simplistic labels and build bridges based on shared humanity.
He encourages open and honest dialogue about our relationship with nature, fostering empathy, understanding, and a more collaborative approach to navigating the complexities of the natural world.

13. The Importance of Respect for All Life:

Tovar advocates for a broader understanding of life, acknowledging the intelligence, sentience, and interconnectedness of all living organisms, including plants.
He highlights the emerging scientific evidence for plant communication and complex interactions within ecosystems.
Tovar encourages a more respectful and mindful approach to all life forms, recognizing their intrinsic value and their vital role in the web of life.
He believes that expanding our understanding of life beyond the human perspective can lead to a more compassionate and sustainable relationship with the natural world.

14. The Evolution of Human Consciousness:

Tovar suggests that our current era represents a stage of human evolution, characterized by a growing awareness of our impact on the environment and the interconnectedness of all life.
He believes that we are moving beyond simplistic notions of good and evil, embracing a more nuanced understanding of the complexities of our relationship with the natural world.
Tovar sees this evolution as a process of rediscovering our primal connection to nature, reconnecting with our instincts and finding a deeper meaning in our place within the web of life.
He envisions a future where humanity embraces a more conscious and sustainable relationship with the environment, informed by a deeper understanding of our shared existence with all living creatures.

5 Memorable Quotes:

“The switch back, the first step really was starting to realize that my diet, whatever I was eating, was connected to all kinds of things that I didn’t realize, you know, control of deer in soybean fields to make tofu. I mean — Yeah. — you know, the control is a nice way. It is a it’s a gentle it’s a gentle word. Right. And just the impact of agriculture on the landscape as a whole.”
“Once you decide you’re gonna pull the trigger on a deer, things get real. That’s a totally different experience because there’s this one guy who’s this healthy ethical vegan who’s walking around looking at the deer, like hello friend. And the next day, you know, your elbows deep in that deer pulling out its guts. hanging it up in a barn and taking the skin off of it.”
“I think that by not participating in it, by not participating in any aspect of the gathering of the food, you get this attachment from it and you say, you know, hey, I can remove myself from any cruelty — Mhmm. — any ethical concerns by just establishing a cruelty free vegan diet.”
“It’s not just food, obviously. I mean, every material that a city that a city uses. Water — Yeah. — huge issue here in California. Right. Huge issue in Atlanta, Georgia, huge issue in many places. That water is coming from somewhere else. every material that that city uses. Very little is being produced actually the raw materials — Yeah. — coming from that location. So we’re constantly drawing on rural areas, you know, far flung around the globe sometimes, but certainly the immediate surroundings.”
“It’s one of the weirdest things in all of nature. and the fact that this is going on in the American wilderness and the vast majority of people that live in this country will never experience that. outside of hunting. Just take the hunting out of it.”

JRE #765 – Tovar Cerulli