JRE #767 – Mike Baker

This Joe Rogan podcast features Mike Baker, a former CIA covert operations officer and current president of Diligence LLC. The conversation delves into provocative topics surrounding US politics, national security, global conflicts, and even the philosophy of competition and personal growth.

Major Topics and Summaries

Here are the key topics explored in the podcast and concise 4-point summaries for each:

1. The Unattractiveness of the Presidency:

   • The podcast starts by questioning the current state of political leadership, suggesting that the presidency has become a daunting and undesirable role.
   • The immense scrutiny and personal sacrifices required to be president are cited as major deterrents.
   • The need for independent wealth and a specific personality type are highlighted as prerequisites for entering the political arena.
   • This leads to a discussion on the current candidates, with Joe Rogan expressing disappointment in the lack of “clear-minded, strategic, smart, pragmatic, reasoned leadership.”

2. Hillary Clinton and the Email Controversy:

   • Mike Baker, drawing on his CIA experience, criticizes Hillary Clinton’s handling of classified information via a private email server.
   • He highlights the severity of the breach and the double standards that seem to apply to Clinton compared to others who have faced consequences for similar offenses.
   • The podcast discusses the potential political motivations behind the DOJ’s apparent inaction on the matter.
   • The contrast between Clinton’s deep entrenchment in the Washington system and Trump’s outsider status is explored, with Baker suggesting that Trump would likely face much harsher scrutiny for a similar situation.

3. The “Lesser Evil” Election:

   • Joe Rogan expresses his frustration with the current political landscape, labeling it a “picking the lesser evil” scenario.
   • He acknowledges the appeal of Bernie Sanders’s social policies but questions the viability of his economic platform.
   • The podcast delves into the concept of “free stuff,” raising concerns about the potential downsides of increased government intervention and taxation.
   • The conversation ultimately concludes that none of the current candidates represent an ideal choice for president, leaving Rogan feeling disillusioned.

4. The Role of the President:

   • Baker argues that the presidency has become an impossible job, with too much responsibility and a lack of control over many key decisions.
   • He highlights the fact that the president is not truly “in charge” of everything, citing the example of a lawyer making the final call on drone strikes.
   • The podcast emphasizes the need for a reasoned and clear-eyed president who can effectively negotiate and work with a capable cabinet.
   • The suggestion is made that presidential candidates should be required to publicly disclose their potential cabinet members, adding transparency to the process.

5. The Benghazi Attack:

   • The podcast revisits the Benghazi attack, focusing on the decision not to send in air support during the incident.
   • Baker expresses his bewilderment at the lack of action, suggesting that political considerations might have overshadowed operational urgency.
   • The conversation highlights the importance of demonstrating a willingness to respond to attacks, even if success is not guaranteed.
   • The podcast points out the contradiction between the military’s supposed duty to protect and the apparent hesitancy to act in this particular case.

6. The Illusion of Zero Risk:

   • Baker argues that there’s a dangerous tendency to seek a zero-risk approach in military and intelligence operations.
   • He emphasizes that risk aversion can lead to inaction and create a culture of mediocrity within organizations.
   • The podcast highlights the need for a balanced approach that acknowledges the inevitability of risk and prioritizes calculated action over complete avoidance.
   • This principle applies to various aspects of life, suggesting that accepting and learning from mistakes is crucial for growth and progress.

7. The Cyclical Nature of Conflict:

   • The podcast explores the recurring pattern of conflict in the Middle East, with the US seemingly repeating mistakes made by the Soviets in Afghanistan.
   • The conversation emphasizes the human tendency to believe that “this time it’s different,” leading to a repetition of past failures.
   • The complexities of nation-building and the challenges of imposing Western values on different cultures are highlighted.
   • The podcast raises questions about the effectiveness of military intervention in regions with deep-rooted cultural and political issues.

8. The US Role in the World:

   • Baker advocates for a more assertive US role in global affairs, arguing that the country should maintain its position at the “top of the food chain.”
   • He dismisses the notion that the US is a malevolent force, acknowledging mistakes but emphasizing the country’s efforts to promote good intentions.
   • The podcast acknowledges the challenges of managing global conflicts and the limitations of American influence in certain regions.
   • The conversation highlights the need for balance, maintaining a strong presence while recognizing the complexities of international relations.

9. The Rise of ISIS:

   • The podcast examines the emergence of ISIS and the potential consequences of the US withdrawal from Iraq.
   • The conversation emphasizes the importance of preventing extremist groups from establishing territory and the difficulties of combating them.
   • The podcast explores the challenges of managing ISIS in a region with multiple competing interests, including those of Russia and Iran.
   • The conversation suggests that the US must find a more effective approach than nation-building, focusing on targeted counter-terrorism efforts rather than broad interventions.

10. The US and Iran:

    • The podcast examines the US’s complicated history with Iran, starting with the overthrow of the Shah and the rise of the Ayatollah.
    • The conversation highlights the challenges of dealing with a country like Iran, which has a long history of resistance to Western influence.
    • The podcast discusses the limitations of hoping for reform within Iran and the need to acknowledge the country’s strategic interests.
    • The conversation suggests that the US needs to be more pragmatic in its dealings with Iran, recognizing the country’s power and influence in the region.

11. The Importance of Competition:

    • The podcast emphasizes the positive role of competition in personal growth and innovation.
    • The conversation critiques the current trend of participation trophies and the avoidance of failure, arguing that these practices hinder development and resilience.
    • The podcast highlights the role of competition in fueling ambition, success, and innovation across various fields, from athletics to technology.
    • The conversation emphasizes the need to teach children the value of effort, perseverance, and learning from mistakes, rather than protecting them from discomfort and defeat.

12. The Apple vs. FBI Dispute:

    • The podcast delves into the ongoing debate surrounding the FBI’s request for Apple to create a backdoor to access encrypted data on a phone belonging to the San Bernardino shooter.
    • Baker argues that the FBI’s request is reasonable given the circumstances, emphasizing the importance of gathering intelligence in cases involving potential threats to public safety.
    • He counters the argument that granting access to this phone would set a dangerous precedent, pointing out that the government already has mechanisms in place for obtaining court orders for accessing encrypted data.
    • The conversation highlights the tension between security and privacy and the difficulty of striking a balance in a world increasingly reliant on digital communication.

13. Chinese Espionage:

    • The podcast discusses the threat of Chinese economic espionage, highlighting the country’s aggressive efforts to steal intellectual property and technology.
    • Baker details the methods used by Chinese intelligence agencies, including the infiltration of corporations and the recruitment of individuals with access to sensitive information.
    • The conversation emphasizes the need for vigilance and proactive counterintelligence efforts to protect US interests.
    • The podcast points out the hypocrisy of US companies doing business in China, acknowledging that their information is at risk of being compromised.

14. The Importance of Firearms Education:

    • While supporting the Second Amendment, Baker argues for the importance of mandatory firearms education and training.
    • He compares owning a firearm to driving a car, suggesting that individuals should demonstrate competency before being allowed to possess weapons.
    • The podcast highlights the dangers of irresponsible gun ownership and the potential for accidents and misuse.
    • The conversation raises concerns about the lack of mandatory training in many states and the potential for misuse, particularly in the context of open carry laws.

15. The Importance of Reading and Critical Thinking:

    • The podcast emphasizes the importance of consuming information from diverse sources and engaging in critical thinking.
    • Baker warns against relying solely on one source, particularly when it comes to political and social issues.
    • The conversation highlights the need to avoid echo chambers and to challenge our own biases in order to form well-informed opinions.
    • The podcast encourages an open-minded approach to information, acknowledging the complexities of the world and the importance of seeking truth.

16. The Importance of Maintaining Dignity:

    • The podcast touches on the importance of maintaining the dignity of public office, particularly for the presidency.
    • Baker criticizes the use of selfies and other seemingly undignified behaviors by politicians, suggesting that decorum is important for maintaining public respect.
    • The conversation highlights the need for leaders to act with grace and composure, even in challenging situations.
    • The podcast suggests that the current political climate has eroded some of the traditional standards of decorum and respect for officeholders.

17. The Impact of Information Speed:

    • The podcast discusses the influence of social media and the 24-hour news cycle on political discourse.
    • Baker notes the lack of fact-checking and the rapid spread of misinformation in this environment.
    • The conversation suggests that this fast-paced media environment contributes to the polarization of political views and the erosion of trust in institutions.
    • The podcast acknowledges the potential for social media to be a force for good but warns against the dangers of unchecked information flow and the erosion of critical thinking.

18. The Importance of Martial Arts Training:

    • The podcast concludes with a discussion on the benefits of martial arts training, particularly for young boys.
    • Baker highlights the benefits of martial arts in terms of building confidence, discipline, and respect for oneself and others.
    • He emphasizes the importance of learning how to defend oneself and the potential for martial arts to prevent unnecessary conflicts.
    • The conversation also touches on the benefits of the belt system in martial arts, providing a sense of accomplishment and progress for students.

Memorable Quotes

• “In this irrational world, your rationality… your… your… let’s deem you a rational man now. Yeah. That’s where we’ve… we’ve been lowering the bar.” – Joe Rogan, jokingly acknowledging the need for rational voices in a chaotic world.
• “Nobody in their right mind would wanna put themselves through it… Yeah… or, you know, unless you’re independently wealthy.” – Baker, highlighting the challenging nature of the presidency and the potential motivation of wealthy individuals to seek the office.
• “If I had done that, I would have been sent to prison. And I know because we had various counterintelligence… you know, operations.” – Baker, emphasizing the seriousness of Hillary Clinton’s actions regarding classified information.
• “You know, you don’t wanna… you don’t wanna rush you out there, you know, until you… you… you wanna have a game plan. Right? You wanna know what you’re doing operationally. But, you… you know, there… there are certain things that are worth bending your spear over.” – Baker, emphasizing the need for a calculated approach to military action while acknowledging the situations that demand decisive action.
• “It’s like, it’s like interrogation training… The whole point of interrogation training is to break it down so that you realize you’ve got a point where it’s just gonna happen.” – Baker, drawing a comparison between interrogation training and the importance of learning from failure and overcoming adversity in life.