JRE #818 – Mike Schmidt

This podcast explores the unsettling disparity in criminal justice outcomes based on race, particularly in Madison, Wisconsin. Mike Schmidt, a former criminal defense attorney, shares his firsthand experiences, shedding light on systemic racism and the inherent biases within the system. Provocative topics include the disproportionate incarceration rates of Black individuals, the influence of wealth on sentencing, and the questionable effectiveness of programs aimed at addressing racial disparities. Underlying themes delve into the complexities of implicit bias, the limitations of statistics in understanding complex social issues, and the importance of systemic change in addressing deeply rooted inequalities.

Major Topics

1. Racial Disparities in the Criminal Justice System:
   1. Schmidt reveals the stark reality of racial disparities in Dane County, Wisconsin, where Black people are disproportionately arrested and incarcerated compared to white people, despite living in a liberal city.
   2. He highlights the specific example of burglary, where Black youth are often denied opportunities for deferred prosecution and expungement, leading to harsher penalties than their white counterparts who commit similar offenses.
   3. The podcast discusses the “Special Investigations Unit,” a program meant to target the most dangerous individuals in Dane County, which was demonstrably biased against Black individuals, despite claims of race-blind selection.
   4. The discussion delves into the broader context of racial disparities in Wisconsin, with statistics highlighting the overrepresentation of Black men in prison and Black children in foster care.
2. The Influence of Wealth on Sentencing Outcomes:
   1. Schmidt underscores how financial resources significantly impact sentencing outcomes, often resulting in lighter punishments for those who can afford restitution.
   2. He argues that the emphasis on restitution as a “win” for victims inadvertently creates a system where wealth buys leniency, further exacerbating inequalities.
   3. The podcast highlights the hypocrisy of a system that prioritizes financial compensation over rehabilitation and justice, particularly for those who lack the means to pay.
   4. This topic raises broader questions about the role of money in shaping the criminal justice system and the potential for creating a two-tiered system of justice.
3. The Game of Criminal Defense:
   1. Schmidt describes the adversarial nature of the criminal justice system, where both defense attorneys and prosecutors engage in a strategic game to secure the most favorable outcome.
   2. He acknowledges the importance of practicing legal skills, even when representing clients he believes are guilty, to hone his abilities for cases involving innocent clients.
   3. The podcast emphasizes the role of precedent and legal strategy in navigating the intricacies of the courtroom, comparing the process to a chess game requiring meticulous planning and execution.
   4. Schmidt also discusses the psychological aspects of courtroom dynamics, emphasizing the importance of understanding and manipulating the emotional responses of jurors.
4. The Challenges of Law Enforcement:
   1. The podcast explores the inherent difficulties of being a police officer, acknowledging the emotional and psychological toll of constantly interacting with individuals involved in criminal activity.
   2. Schmidt highlights the “winning mentality” often adopted by law enforcement, which can lead to questionable practices like planting evidence to secure convictions.
   3. He discusses the impact of social pressure and increased scrutiny through video recordings, which can help curb corruption but also create a “win-at-all-costs” mentality in some officers.
   4. The podcast raises questions about the training and supervision of police officers, emphasizing the need for robust systems to address bias and ensure accountability.
5. The Power of Pardons and Executive Clemency:
   1. Schmidt reveals the vast and largely unchecked power of governors to grant pardons and release individuals from prison, highlighting the potential for abuse and the inherent limitations of the judicial system.
   2. He argues that the power of executive clemency is necessary to address situations where the courts fail to deliver justice, but acknowledges the potential for corruption and political influence.
   3. The podcast explores the history of presidential pardons, from Nixon’s pardon by Ford to Clinton’s controversial pardons of Michael Milken and Susan McDougal.
   4. This topic raises questions about the proper balance between executive power and judicial oversight, emphasizing the need for transparency and accountability in the pardon process.
6. The Halliburton Connection and War Profiteering:
   1. The podcast examines the controversial relationship between Dick Cheney, former Vice President, and Halliburton, a company that received billions in no-bid contracts during the Iraq War.
   2. Schmidt criticizes the use of blind trusts to shield politicians from conflicts of interest, highlighting the potential for abuse and the blurring of lines between public service and private gain.
   3. He argues that the Halliburton connection exemplifies the potential for war profiteering and the manipulation of political power for personal financial gain.
   4. The discussion raises broader questions about the role of corporations in shaping foreign policy and the need for greater transparency and accountability in government contracts.
7. The Iraq War and the Power of Narrative:
   1. The podcast touches upon the controversy surrounding the Iraq War, specifically the use of false pretenses about weapons of mass destruction to justify military intervention.
   2. Schmidt anticipates a future film that will explore the behind-the-scenes machinations and the human cost of the war.
   3. He highlights the importance of understanding the power of narratives in shaping public opinion and the need for critical thinking when evaluating information about war and conflict.
   4. This topic raises broader questions about the role of media in shaping public perception and the responsibility of leaders to be truthful and accountable for their decisions.
8. The Surveillance State and Data Hoarding:
   1. Schmidt discusses the increasing pervasiveness of government surveillance, emphasizing the collection of vast amounts of personal data through electronic communication.
   2. He highlights the lack of transparency and public awareness about the extent of government data collection, arguing that citizens have not fully grasped the implications for their privacy.
   3. The podcast raises concerns about the potential for abuse and the chilling effect of surveillance on free speech and dissent.
   4. This topic explores the complex relationship between security and privacy, highlighting the need for a public discourse on the balance between these competing interests.
9. The Clinton Emails and the Shifting Landscape of Politics:
   1. The podcast touches upon the controversy surrounding Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server while serving as Secretary of State, highlighting the heightened scrutiny and media attention in the digital age.
   2. Schmidt contrasts the current political climate with the pre-social media era, noting the unprecedented level of scrutiny and negativity directed at politicians.
   3. He explores the challenges of navigating political office in a hyper-connected world, where every action and statement is subject to immediate public scrutiny.
   4. This topic raises questions about the role of social media in shaping political discourse and the challenges of maintaining privacy and accountability in the digital age.
10. The Importance of Perspective and Historical Context:
    1. Schmidt emphasizes the importance of understanding historical context when evaluating current events and social issues.
    2. He highlights the recency of events like the abolition of slavery and the invention of the automobile, challenging the perception that these events are distant in the past.
    3. The podcast encourages listeners to consider the rapid pace of change and the interconnectedness of history, urging them to engage with the past to understand the present.
    4. This topic promotes critical thinking and a deeper understanding of how societal structures and biases are shaped by historical events.
11. The Future of the Criminal Justice System:
    1. Schmidt acknowledges the need for reform within the criminal justice system, acknowledging its inherent flaws and the need for systemic change.
    2. He expresses skepticism about the effectiveness of existing programs aimed at addressing racial disparities, advocating for a more holistic approach to justice.
    3. The podcast leaves the audience with a call to action, urging them to engage in dialogue and advocate for reforms that promote fairness and equity.
    4. This topic emphasizes the ongoing importance of social justice movements and the need for individuals to actively participate in creating a more just and equitable society.
12. The Comedy Store: A Unique Ecosystem:
    1. Schmidt discusses the iconic Comedy Store, highlighting its unique role in shaping the careers of numerous comedians and its status as a hub for comedic talent.
    2. He emphasizes the importance of the store’s “farm system,” where employees often transition from roles like doorman or cover booth worker to successful comedians.
    3. The podcast showcases the dynamic and competitive nature of the comedy world, emphasizing the need for constant improvement and the drive to be the best.
    4. This topic explores the cultural significance of stand-up comedy and the role of venues like the Comedy Store in fostering creativity and innovation.

Memorable Quotes

• “It is absolutely not the case. It is the like, if you’re black in America, I mean, you’ve seen the studies, you’ve seen the statistics. you’ve seen riots, like, things are not good. You’re not being treated well. And you would think that the worst place to be would be where you see riots happening like Ferguson. Mhmm. But, actually, it’s Madison, Wisconsin.” – Schmidt highlights the often overlooked reality of racial disparities in seemingly liberal areas.
• “The best example is burglary. So burglary is a crime that there’s multiple stages to burglary. There’s people who are very good at burglary who will, you know, knock on a house and announce themselves, say, hey, Kathy. Just to try and avoid being charged with burglary under this statute, just the way it’s worded. but teenagers do burglary a different way. They wait till somebody’s out of town that they know, and they rob their parents’ house. and they’ll take their PlayStation, and they’ll take their liquor and everything, and they get caught. They’ll usually do a couple of them, and they’ll get caught in a group. And if that’s your first trip into the justice system, you are probably in Dane County, you’re probably gonna get a deferred prosecution agreement. And if you keep your nose clean, you’ll get an expunction, which is where the judge says, I don’t think the community would be harmed, and I think you would be helped by making it like this never happens. So the police can keep a report of it, but nobody will ever know. So the black kids don’t get the offer of extinction right out of gates. The the white kids do.” – Schmidt illustrates the racial bias in sentencing, highlighting the disparity in treatment even for first-time offenders.
• “But the thing is the system only works if you just come at the other side and the other side just comes at you because you’ve got you know, they’ve got the police behind them. They’ve got the fact that they’ve got a badge that impresses, you know, civilians during the jury trial. they’ve got prosecutors who have access to state crime labs, they’re gonna come at you. And if they lose, it’s their fault. so they have to win these ones.” – Schmidt emphasizes the inherent power imbalance within the legal system, favoring the prosecution due to resources and perception.
• “So you’re saying, like, literally the you could replace the list with white people that were violent, dangerous criminals, and it would be a better choice. Absolutely. So the dangerous people were not even in the top 10. Yeah. Yeah. If they wanted, like, if they wanted to know who the biggest fucking main acts in the in Dane County where they could have just asked the defense attorneys. We wouldn’t have told them — Right. — before you knew the answers. But you knew the answers.” – Schmidt exposes the absurdity of the “Special Investigations Unit,” highlighting the disregard for actual criminal activity and the prioritization of racial biases.
• “I’ve never heard a lawyer put it quite like that, like that, honestly. We’ve talked about it before on the podcast where I think that there’s a real problem with cops arresting criminals. And not that they shouldn’t, but there’s a real problem that it becomes a game, like you’re trying to win, you’re trying to catch people for doing things, and you’re trying to lock them up. And when you’re trying to win, because that is a win. You know, if you get someone, you lock them up, you arrest them, you catch them, they get convicted, they go up River Eye set them up River. I win.” – Rogan acknowledges the inherent “winning mentality” often ingrained in law enforcement, which can lead to problematic behaviors and a focus on punishment over rehabilitation.