JRE #837 - Gad Saad - cast recap

8/23/2016

Joe Rogan Podcast #837 – Gad Saad: 15 Key Topics

This podcast delves deep into the controversial and intriguing world of evolutionary psychology through a conversation with Gad Saad, a professor of marketing and evolutionary behavioral sciences. Topics range from the biological roots of human behavior to the debate surrounding the validity of evolutionary psychology, and the influence of social justice narratives. Underlying themes explore the intricate interplay between nature and nurture, the power of human biases, and the importance of embracing objective evidence.

1. The Evolutionary Roots of Sun Tanning:

Saad argues that women’s tendency for obsessive sun tanning, even when aware of the risks, is rooted in an evolutionary drive for attractiveness, reflecting a prioritization of immediate gratification over long-term consequences.
This connects to the concept of “proximate” versus “ultimate” explanations in evolutionary theory, where proximate explanations address the “how” and “what” of a behavior, while ultimate explanations delve into the “why” from an evolutionary perspective.
He uses the example of pregnancy sickness, suggesting its biological function is to protect the fetus from teratogens during the first trimester, even if the proximate experience is unpleasant.
Saad connects this to eating disorders, arguing that the ultimate explanation is the female’s perception of environmental threats, such as lack of partner or family support, triggering a biological response that shuts down reproductive potential for a perceived “better” future.

2. The Hourglass Figure: An Evolutionary Preference?

Saad posits that men’s preference for the hourglass figure in women stems from evolutionary underpinnings, suggesting a biological basis for this aesthetic appeal.
He presents a “nomological network” of evidence, drawing on medical data, cultural universals, art history, and studies with congenitally blind men, all converging to support the argument.
The study involving congenitally blind men is challenged by Joe Rogan, questioning the validity of using mannequins and the limited sample size.
Saad argues that while the study has limitations, it provides a basis for further research, highlighting the complexity and often imperfect nature of scientific research.

3. The “Beauty Myth” and Female Victimization:

Saad discusses Naomi Wolf’s “The Beauty Myth,” which argues that men perpetuate unrealistic beauty standards to exert control over women, creating a sense of insecurity and perpetuating a cycle of victimization.
He criticizes this theory as a conspiratorial approach that dismisses the biological basis of attractiveness, proposing that men’s attraction to certain physical characteristics stems from evolutionary influences.
Saad emphasizes that men’s attraction to certain features, while often rooted in biology, does not imply a deliberate effort to harm women.
He highlights the role of social media and unrealistic portrayals of women in the media in contributing to body image issues, but argues that these societal factors are superimposed upon a biological foundation.

4. The “Myth of Healthy Obesity” and Societal Double Standards:

Saad explores the idea that some individuals attempt to justify their own obesity by claiming a “myth” of societal bias against overweight individuals, arguing that being overweight can be healthy.
He points out that while some health conditions may improve with weight gain, this is not due to the inherent healthiness of obesity, but rather because of the body’s ability to draw on fat reserves for fuel during illness.
Saad argues that the societal preference for leanness is not arbitrary but rather a reflection of evolutionary principles, suggesting that excess weight often correlates with unhealthy dietary habits and a sedentary lifestyle.
He contends that the societal double standard, where women are often criticized for their weight while men may be praised for muscular physiques, reflects both biological and societal influences.

5. The Darwinian Pools of Indulgence:

Saad discusses the concept of “Darwinian pools,” referring to inherent biological drives that make it difficult to resist unhealthy behaviors, such as overeating, substance abuse, and risky behavior.
He argues that while people may be aware of the negative consequences of these behaviors, the biological pulls often outweigh conscious efforts to control them.
He uses the example of sun tanning, where women often choose immediate gratification over long-term health concerns, despite possessing sufficient information to make a more informed choice.
Saad suggests that these Darwinian pools reflect our evolutionary past, where immediate survival and reproduction were paramount, making it difficult to completely transcend these ingrained drives in modern society.

6. The Importance of Gut Health and Probiotics:

Saad emphasizes the crucial role of gut health in overall well-being, highlighting the impact of gut bacteria on mood, cognitive function, and even personality.
He advocates for the consumption of probiotics, such as kefir, kombucha, kimchi, and sauerkraut, as a means of promoting a healthy gut microbiome.
Saad attributes his own good health and resistance to illness to his regular consumption of probiotics.
He notes the increasing recognition of gut health as a key aspect of overall wellness, emphasizing the importance of balancing gut bacteria for optimal health.

7. Evolutionary Medicine and the Mismatch Hypothesis:

Saad introduces the field of evolutionary medicine, which seeks to integrate evolutionary principles into medical practice.
He explains the “mismatch hypothesis,” which posits that traits that were adaptive in environments of scarcity can become maladaptive in environments of plenty, leading to modern health issues.
He uses the example of our innate desire for fatty foods, which was beneficial in the past when food was scarce, but can lead to obesity and related health problems in modern society with abundant food options.
Saad argues that evolutionary medicine offers a valuable perspective for understanding and treating modern diseases, emphasizing the importance of considering our evolutionary history in understanding health and well-being.

8. The “Munchhausen Syndrome” and the Need for Victimhood:

Saad proposes the concept of “Munchhausen Syndrome” as a metaphor to explain the societal tendency to seek attention and sympathy by adopting a victim narrative.
He connects this to the female tendency to attribute body image issues to unrealistic beauty standards rather than acknowledging biological influences.
Saad suggests that this tendency stems from a desire for validation and empathy, especially in a society where women have achieved greater equality but may still seek to differentiate themselves through a victim narrative.
He argues that this phenomenon, while not a true psychological disorder, reflects a deep-seated desire for attention and a tendency to seek validation through suffering.

9. The Debate Surrounding Evolutionary Psychology:

Saad addresses common criticisms of evolutionary psychology, including accusations of post-hoc storytelling and biological determinism.
He defends evolutionary psychology as a rigorous scientific field that employs a high standard of evidence and utilizes a variety of research methodologies to validate its claims.
Saad emphasizes the use of nomological networks, where converging lines of evidence from different disciplines support a particular theory.
He argues that while evolutionary psychology provides valuable insights into the biological foundations of human behavior, it does not imply that we are entirely determined by our genes, but rather that our genes interact with our environment to shape our experiences.

10. The Nature of Scientific Debate and the Importance of Humility:

Saad highlights the importance of open-mindedness and humility in scientific discourse, emphasizing the value of challenging existing paradigms and acknowledging limitations in scientific knowledge.
He discusses the role of ego in scientific debates, arguing that some individuals may resist new ideas because they threaten their perceived status or expertise.
Saad encourages embracing a spirit of curiosity and a willingness to learn from others, recognizing that even the most established scientists can benefit from new perspectives and insights.
He emphasizes the importance of acknowledging mistakes, apologizing when necessary, and engaging in respectful dialogue, even when disagreeing with others.

11. The Evolutionary Roots of Toy Preferences:

Saad explores the controversial topic of sex-specific toy preferences, arguing that these preferences are innate rather than solely a result of socialization.
He presents evidence from studies on pre-socialization infants, cross-cultural comparisons, animal studies, and clinical populations, all suggesting a biological basis for these preferences.
He challenges the social constructivist view, which often attributes these preferences to cultural conditioning and social pressures.
Saad suggests that these innate preferences may reflect evolutionary roles, where boys may gravitate towards toys that promote spatial reasoning and motor skills, while girls may favor toys that foster nurturing and social skills.

12. The Gender Gap in STEM Fields: A Matter of Nature or Nurture?

Saad addresses the ongoing debate surrounding the underrepresentation of women in STEM fields, arguing that this gap may be influenced by innate biological preferences and not solely due to societal discrimination.
He cites the example of Larry Summers, the former president of Harvard University, who sparked controversy by suggesting that women may be less innately predisposed to STEM fields.
Saad emphasizes the need for nuanced discussions about gender differences, acknowledging that while women can excel in STEM, there may be a biological basis for the observed gender gap.
He argues against the narrative of victimization and suggests that focusing on individual talents and interests, rather than solely on societal barriers, may be a more effective approach to promoting inclusivity and diversity in STEM.

13. The Perpetuation of Myths and the Power of Societal Narratives:

Saad highlights the pervasive nature of societal myths, such as the “gender pay gap” and the “1 in 5 college women will be sexually assaulted” statistic.
He debunks these myths, providing evidence that the gender pay gap is often attributed to differences in career choices, work hours, and risk factors rather than simple discrimination.
He criticizes the misuse of statistics, suggesting that the sexual assault statistic may be inflated by conflating different forms of sexual misconduct, including unwanted groping or sexual harassment, with more severe forms of assault.
Saad emphasizes the importance of critically evaluating information and challenging narratives that may be based on incomplete or misleading data, advocating for a more nuanced and evidence-based approach to understanding societal issues.

14. The Evolution of Deception and Self-Deception:

Saad explores the evolutionary roots of deception, arguing that it is an inherent part of human behavior, both in our interactions with others and in our relationship with ourselves.
He explains that even animals engage in deceptive signaling, such as mimicking warning colors to avoid predators.
Saad delves into the concept of self-deception, suggesting that we often lie to ourselves to suppress telltale signs of deception, making us more convincing liars.
He argues that understanding the evolutionary roots of deception is essential for navigating complex social interactions and for making more informed choices about our own behavior.

15. The Importance of Core Strength and Spine Health:

Saad discusses the significance of core strength and spine health, advocating for regular exercise and decompression techniques to prevent injuries.
He highlights the “reverse hyper” machine, designed to decompress the spine, as a valuable tool for addressing back pain and preventing injuries.
Saad emphasizes the importance of posture, advocating for the use of ergonomic chairs and standing desks to maintain proper spinal alignment.
He stresses the need for consistent preventative measures, such as stretching, yoga, and core exercises, to promote long-term spinal health and prevent chronic pain.

5 Memorable Quotes:

“If you’re unattracted to an overly overweight woman, then you are a fattist. But on the other hand, if you prefer very overweight women, then there’s the narrative that you are fetishizing, you know, excess meat. So if you prefer an overweight woman, you’re a bad guy. And if you dislike overweight women, you’re fattist. So there’s no state of the world where someone won’t accuse you of being an asshole.”
“The problem stems from the fact that there are these Darwinian pools that make it difficult for us to extricate ourselves. Whether it be whether you’re addicted to drugs because it tickles your pleasure center in your brain or whether it be because you’re addicted to sex, or whether you’re addicted to a bit more food than you should be eating, those are the Darwinian pools, pulls that make it difficult for us to do the optimal decision.”
“The idea that a statement is racist scientifically? No, it’s either false or not false, or provisionally true. But apparently, the argument from the other camp is, the mere fact that you ask these questions suggests that there must be a reason that is nefarious for you to ask these questions.”
“The reality is that they’re going to lose this battle. There will be a day when it’ll become banal to argue that humans are driven by evolutionary imperatives. And I already see it from my own scientific career. If I look at the antipathy that I felt that I faced 15 years ago versus today, is very, very different. The antipathy that I felt from sometimes the same person. I could still have emails from somebody who wrote me 10 years ago thinking that my work was full of shit, who’s now inviting me to his university with all sorts of deference.”
“The problem with much of the social sciences has been, and they’re losing now by the day, has been that they’ve completely rejected biology as in any way relevant in explaining anything, mating, criminality, political choice. For example, there’s a field called evolutionary politics or biopolitics, which tries to infuse evolutionary theory within political science. Well, no kidding. I mean, what happens when we’re making political choices, suddenly our biology ceases to matter?”

JRE #837 – Gad Saad